Transcript #028 - Men's Work

Joshua Fineman: [00:00:00] Coming into this community like Mench, men are coming with like, I've been trying to do it all on my own for so long and it's exhausting. And so coming into a space of like, oh wow, like I'm not the only one who feels like this. And actually it's really nice that I feel like you guys hear me and see me and you'll support me with this challenge and I can do the same with you.

It's really trying to reprogram that, that narrative.

Amanda Parker: Welcome to Don't Step on the Blue Bells, the podcast where personal healing and transformation take center stage. I'm your host, Amanda Parker, and I'm a fellow seeker on the journey of personal growth. Join me as I delve into the stories of gifted healers, guides, and everyday people who have experienced remarkable transformations.

Listen in as they share their practical wisdom to enrich your everyday life. And don't forget to hit subscribe and never miss a new episode. [00:01:00] Welcome to today's episode of Don't Step on the Blue Bells. I am here with the talented Joshua Fineman, who is the founder of Mensch and a facilitator of men's work.

And today we're going to be diving into the topic of men's work, what that means, what that looks like. Joshua, I am so excited to have you here sharing this with us. Thank you so much for being on the podcast.

Joshua Fineman: It is a pleasure and a real privilege having listened to an episode about, I can't remember, was it Bjorn the Samurai Swordsman?

To be, uh, lined up alongside the quality of people you've had is, is, uh, yeah, it's, it's, I'm very grateful. So thank you for having me.

Amanda Parker: Oh, it's such a pleasure. I've been following your work online for. I don't know if it's the last few months or the last year or so. A friend of mine had actually connected me to what you do, and I just love what you're sharing in the world and the way.

really the way that you share who you are [00:02:00] and what you're working through even on your own so vulnerably. I didn't even say that word right. Vulnerably. Um, yeah. So I really wanted to have a conversation. A lot of people don't really know what men's work is or why it matters. I, I even heard someone last night when I said, Oh, this person does women's circles.

This person does men's circles. And she said, well, why don't they just do it together? Yeah. So I think there's a lot of like misunderstanding and I'm so happy to just be able to really dive into that with you.

Joshua Fineman: Yeah, me too.

Amanda Parker: I know that you're based in the UK because I know you're living in a beautiful part of London that I have been quite curious about myself.

Um, did you grow up here? Are you from London?

Joshua Fineman: Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm a Londoner. Born and bred. I grew up in a town called Northwood, and then dotted in and around being closer to the centre when I left home, and now settled in like a really gorgeous part [00:03:00] of North London called Arkley, which is, I think, as close to countryside as one can get within Uh, the M25, which for those who don't know London or the UK well is kind of like a circular motorway that surrounds the city

Amanda Parker: I love that That's honestly what i'm craving.

I can actually see the countryside around

Joshua Fineman: You're there with me already. We're making it happen

Amanda Parker: We're making it we're manifesting Amen So I'd love for you to share what it is that you're most excited about right now.

Joshua Fineman: I think what I'm most excited about right now is like really where I'm at in this current chapter of my journey as a dad, husband, man, leader.

And I was away recently with the My family, I've got three young kids. We were away on a really lovely summer holiday together. And, um, I suppose the word was [00:04:00] unplugged. I unplugged from a lot of my people work. So whether it was like my coaching clients or the groups I'm running. Or it's the groups I'm participating in or my own personal work with my own coaches and supervisors and all the people who support me.

Whilst I was away, I was really conscious to still create time for myself and my wife where I wasn't just being a dad and I wasn't just being a husband. So exercise, meditation, journaling, um, time with friends, that kind of thing. And it was lovely, like really. cool to, like, really intentionally create that space for myself.

But I'm not gonna lie, there was this underlying irritation that felt, if I was to, to kind of dive into it, it was like a lonely sadness. Um, that was just following me around. And sometimes it also expressed, expressed itself in my mind through like classic, you [00:05:00] know, fearing of the future and my, you know, there was an irritation.

So my mind just went to like all the things that typically goes to that's wrong with work and money and all this stuff. And then I came home after this really, it was a really lovely holiday, had a great time, but there was this thing going on in the background. And I came home and as part of Mench, um, we run every Friday morning, we have this ritual where any, any guy can come and we run it in my retreat partner's site.

We do a 45 minute stretch session, then we do an ice plunge and a swim in his lake, and then we have a check in. like a basically a two minute share as to where you feel you're at. And I just immediately felt in that moment I was back at home in myself. In my share what I said to them was how I've just recognized that this thing that I've created, created as in in my life.

It's not a hobby. It's not a [00:06:00] passion. It's not a business. It's a practice. It's like brushing my teeth or going to the gym. It is essential for me to to feel like myself. And so like what a gift I had to to unplug from it to then come back to it and recognize like this is an absolutely integral part of helping me show up as the person I want to be for myself and everyone that I care about.

And how lucky am I that I've discovered that this is, this is what that is for me.

Amanda Parker: It's beautiful to hear you describe that because it also sounds like The very feeling that you described that sort of loneliness or isolation that you were feeling when you were away must be what so many of the men that you're supporting feel until they find this work and they find you and they find this group and it's almost like a reconnecting to.

why this work matters so much.

Joshua Fineman: Yeah. Yeah. Because there's people

Amanda Parker: who [00:07:00] are feeling that every day. Yeah. And they don't know how to change that until they finally find a place where they feel at home.

Joshua Fineman: Yeah, completely. Like, it doesn't have to be men's work, doesn't have to be this kind of, there are a million different ways of finding where home is.

But for, for me and for so many men that I help, there is something very, very powerful about this particular home that men recognize, wow, I didn't realize this was missing in my life until I've experienced it.

Amanda Parker: We're dancing on the edge now. I'd love to hear like, what is men's work? How do you describe or define what that actually is?

Joshua Fineman: It kind of evolves and changes for me, but I think at the core of it, it's about men coming together to grow and better themselves in a fellowship. And what I mean by that is, It's men's work for [00:08:00] me is about going on a shared journey with other men who push each other and call each other forward to be better versions of themselves.

That's essentially what men's work is at its core for me.

Amanda Parker: I hear just from what you had shared before, there is really this element of feeling connected to community. Like, and maybe this is just a societal narrative that I now have in my mind, so you can tell me if, if this is like a, uh, what's the word, just a cliché, so to speak, but, you know, as a woman myself, it's quite easy for me to connect with other women, maybe even to connect with men, but there is this you know, sense that it can be really challenging for men to like find a way to find intimacy and vulnerability with each other.

Joshua Fineman: Yeah, completely.

Amanda Parker: But it's as essential as it would be for any woman to have exactly that amongst men. [00:09:00] 

Joshua Fineman: I was thinking about this actually earlier today, like a lot of the time I, I describe it as like you kind of whether it's in physical person, whether it's online, you kind of, you arrive with this group of men.

You're carrying on this like really heavy armor all day and it's an opportunity to just take that off and just learn what it's like to practice being yourself or being a version of yourself that you're too scared of practicing outside of that forum. And I want to be clear when I say you, you take the armor off.

You know, for some men, the armor, like, expresses itself in selfishness and anger, standoffishness. and boasting and, you know, very like, I've got it all together. I don't need help. Right. And so taking that armor off and, and saying like, Oh, actually there's all this stuff going on underneath the surface that [00:10:00] I'm, I'm too, I'm not willing to let people see.

I think the character that I portrayed Or I, I believed I was in the armor that I put on as I was the nice guy. You know, my armor was like trying to please people was being the joker, being the deep listener and the good friend and doing things that, you know, ticking all the things off the list that I meant to do to be a good boy and taking that armor off in this space.

has been learning and practicing how to say no, how to put up boundaries, how to express and be comfortable with the anger that I have buried and repressed. And I think that's what's so amazing about this kind of environment is that very thing that everyone comes together and learns from each other.

And their armor is either is different to what each other's are, but it's still armor anyway, that they're learning to strip away.

Amanda Parker: So how did it come to be that you started leading men's [00:11:00] work? How did that start?

Joshua Fineman: A lot of my life has been in male circles, really. And like, I was the guy who you know, put on like the parties that brought my mates together or was organized the stags, which were like, not just the typical ones, but was about bringing connection amongst this group of 12, you know, 12 or 15 guys or whatever.

And there was always a part of me that was about bringing people together. And I think I've always been quite good at doing that with men more than probably most men. And I was also someone who always enjoyed deep conversations and, and could have the difficult ones with friends. And there have been many friends over the years where I've supported them or I've been open enough that they've supported me.

And so I think if I really look back, it started from childhood, just being extremely comfortable with being Um, around guys and wanting to bring guys together. And [00:12:00] then, really, where it started properly, in terms of the actual work itself, was in my early thirties, I had kind of zig zagged career wise. and landed running a creative agency in the advertising space.

And I was absolutely exhausted. And we just had our first child. My mum got in a terrible car crash. Really bad, like in hospital for three or four months. Fine now, eight years on. Still some kind of long term challenges for her. I just don't think anyone's ever the same after something like that. And it was a bit of a miracle she recovered.

But that was kind of my first experience of death. Um, or, or how fragile life is, and yet a week or two into that whole scenario and three months into having a child, I was coming home from work with this glazed look in my eyes worrying about something that feels so insignificant compared to a situation like that.

My wife turned to [00:13:00] me and said, I can't do this anymore, like I can't be your therapist as well as mother to our child and your wife, like you, you need somebody else or something else. And so my first port of call was I was like, well, I know I've got my issues are bad, but they're not that bad. So like therapy was quite this taboo place to go to.

So I was like, I'll see a coach. And so I met this woman, started to learn about myself more, what are my values, like, what is it that I really want, what is it that I don't want, what are my boundaries, like, how am I play acting in front of people, oh, I'm this, you know, really, the beginnings of learning about who I am.

And that led to one or two quite significant shifts in life. And then after a year or two of working together, it kind of felt like we'd come to the end. And at that point, someone introduced me to this guy called Kenny. And Kenny grew up in Wales, has the most incredible backstory, worked with Mother Teresa, went traveling around the world and set up this thing, maybe [00:14:00] 25, 30 years ago called Men's Speak.

Kenny soon became more like a life guide, but acted as like a, he was a men's coach and he introduced me to men's groups. He said, why don't you come to a men's group? And, uh, I remember at the time I was like, what the fuck is a men's group? Like that, that there's a part of me that loves to try new things out.

So I was like, you know, what's the worst that can happen? I'll go, I'll go to the men's groups. It was in. Like the back streets of Camden, if you know it, in a, in a, like a, a dark room, like, and it was a real motley crew of guys. There was like six of us and Kenny was facilitating it. And I really didn't know what to expect.

And, and, you know, he, he, he gets, uh, He gets, he's got like a, a, a, not a singing bowl, but like a, like a bell, like a, he gets a bell out and we do a two minute silence and I'm like, what are we about to do? And then we go through this very [00:15:00] loose, very beautifully held framework that he's masters, which allowed each man in the room to just like let his guard down and open up.

And, and I was hooked. And so I started going to more and more and more of these groups with him. And this was around the same time that I had this real, uh, urge going on inside of me that something wasn't right with work. Uh, having those men's group experiences, I was like, I don't want to tell him I ran a creative agency that made TV ads for whiskey brands.

Um, but what I know in my heart of hearts I want to be doing is what Kenny is doing. COVID happened and everything went online and Kenny needed men to support him because there was this like influx of guys who, who needed that kind of space to support themselves. And so a bunch of us. got [00:16:00] trained up in, in how to hold that kind of space with him.

And, and he became more like a guide and support when things happened and we screwed up or something bad happened or something good happened just to have that person to learn with along the way. And I did that for maybe two and a half years or so every week, once or twice a week, I was, I was running groups on top of going to groups with him.

I did everything. I was like with guys who were suicidal, guys who'd literally just got off the phone to their partner saying that they wanted to break up with them, like their wives with kids, partners, not just like short term relationships, guys who were really struggling with drug addiction or alcohol.

So like people like right at the edges. And then equally like people like me who were seeking something, you know, looking for a sense of direction and purpose and irritation [00:17:00] going on inside of them and a loneliness and, and not knowing what to do with it. And I thought, you know what, I want to do this.

test myself. I wonder what it would be like to run my own group. And I come from, um, a Jewish culture. My, my, that's my lineage, so to speak. And mensch was this word that was just banded around all the time at home. And, and like, I was called it a few times and it felt nice to be called a mensch. And then I learned that actually in Yiddish, which is an old Jewish language, in German, it means human, to be human.

And in Yiddish, it means to be a person of integrity and honor. And I was like, well, that's just bloody perfect, isn't it? That's literally what this work is all about. It's about leading life with integrity and honor. And my God, does the world need more men with integrity and honor right now? And so to be amongst other men on this [00:18:00] shared journey where you're, you're brothers in arms, like, Knowing that you're fighting the hard fight, which is ultimately the good one that we all, I think, certainly within Mench, the thing that brings us together is when we die and we look back, we want to know that we've done our best to support ourselves and support the people and things we care about the most.

And doing that amongst others is just very special. So, and now it's, and it evolved, it's evolved. And now I'm, I feel like I'm in the third iteration of the community, which is very, very exciting. And we've got. You know, it's essentially like regular group work, one on one coaching and in person experiences and retreats.

Amanda Parker: Well, it sounds, um, I think what can happen a lot in like different kinds of healing spaces, that's how I refer to it, like a healing space or a growth space, that you're exposed to different [00:19:00] ways of growing and learning and someone who is, you know, maybe as you said, you were running a creative agency, so it's not that you were necessarily directly in that space.

But once you're exposed and then you see what's actually possible and how much it can change your life, it's so easy to just suddenly realize, wait, I want to do that too. I mean, that's how I became a coach. It's how so many people I know start in like a coaching profession or. Leading groups or whatever it is.

They had a profound experience themselves. There was so much impact and they really. wanted to assure other people through that experience and help more people to be able to recognize what's actually possible for them.

Joshua Fineman: Yeah, exactly. I don't know if there's anyone in this space who started as the young person who was like, that's what I want to do when I'm older.

I'm

Amanda Parker: going to be a man. I'm going to be a [00:20:00] therapist. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I can imagine and. You know, I have not myself participated in a men's group. Of course I have joined, I've joined a woman's circle and I did have an interview recently with someone who runs or like really does women's work, but it sounds like it's also.

I guess it's nourishing in the same way, but just a different way of approaching that work, you know? So I can imagine if someone's listening and they're like, a men's group, do you sit around in a circle and cry? I mean, like what's happening? So maybe you can share just some of the nuance of, yeah, what are some of the things that you actually do when you come together that's really nourishing for men to be able to experience in that space?

Joshua Fineman: So, I think first thing to say is there's a real breadth to this space of men's work. And I think you can go to, you can join some communities that are like [00:21:00] on the, what I suppose some people would describe as the woo woo side of things, deeply in the like, tribal drumming, jumping over, like. Embrace this inner part of yourself, the, the, the king warrior, like, you know, and, and for some guys that is like gold.

And I know for me, some of those practices have been like absolutely revolutionary. But there's also like the other end of the scale, which is more emotional intelligence and learning about like self awareness and, and about learning, you know, on, on the science of what's going on in your body. And it's about learning and practicing sharing that with me.

So like, in terms of the. that there's, there's lots of different ways of getting into men's work. So, there's no one way of doing it. But essentially, what it is, at its heart, for me, it is a group of men coming together and working together. Committing to going on a journey [00:22:00] together. Of course there are groups where you can kind of dip in and out and there's no commitment, but the, the, the magic in men's work for me is men coming together and saying, I am putting this date into my diary every week, or every other week, or every month, or whatever the cadence is, and I'm going to show up, and I'm showing up for me, and I'm showing up for all of you.

And sometimes I'm going to be bored and sometimes I'm going to be pissed off and sometimes I'm going to be sad and sometimes I'm going to be joyful. And a lot of the time I don't even want to be here, but I am showing up for this thing. Um, and when I don't want to be here, I commit to expressing that I don't want to be here because I'm not going to hide that from this group.

And I think my role as facilitator is to help men learn how to actually do that, because it's so easy to hide away or to leave when things get uncomfortable.

Amanda Parker: That's what I wanted to say. This is maybe also a bit of stereotype, but you [00:23:00] know, we know in society that men are so often told not to express their emotions.

And that could be sadness, that could be grief, that could be anger, whatever it is, but it's better just to keep it tucked in. So you're actually training people how to connect and share that.

Joshua Fineman: Exactly. And, and, you know, there's a, like, in, in Mench, and I really try to connect men to their, their body, what they're feeling in their body.

I think a lot of men, when I ask the question, how are you feeling? It's very difficult for men to actually even know. So it's really like a retraining about, like, what, what that even means when I say, how do you feel? So that men can get better at actually knowing what that is. And then each session that we do, it varies.

Sometimes it's themes, sometimes we'll bring something in. It could be a taboo topic like sex and intimacy. It could be something a bit more around, um, career progress. You [00:24:00] know, there's a real breadth of themes. And sometimes we don't need a theme because the way that it works is the men come with something that is needing to be shared so much that it forms the basis of the conversation.

So that, that's kind of. I would say broadly what the work is. And then in terms of like functionally, what actually happens in a group, we have a, some form of grounding exercise. You know, a lot, a lot of guys who come, like, the, the narrative is, like, they're, they're putting themselves under huge pressure.

They barely have any time for themselves. They barely have any time where they're not just in their head thinking about, you know, the stuff that they've, got to be getting on with and doing and so just giving them a space where the first thing we do just like you beautifully did with us before this is like to slow that slow down like slow yourself down and then we have a check [00:25:00] in round essentially where we have a set of three questions that we answer together.

Um, so each person has a minute or two to, to, to share that. And then from there, as I said, if there's a theme, there's a conversation where we, we circle around that theme that we bring in, or, um, we give space for each man's opportunity to share more about what they're saying. And we kind of flow with what's in the room.

And then, you know, naturally stuff comes up. People can. really appreciate and relate to what other people are sharing. And we just make sure it's a space where, you know, there's no advice or fixing, which men like to go towards. There's no telling people what they should do. It's about listening, being curious.

Asking questions, sharing how what that other man said personally relates to your own experience. What may have come up for you, um, you know, sometimes a guy can be [00:26:00] sharing something and like someone else starts breaking down in tears. And so it's as much about listening and hearing your own story and somebody else's as it is about sharing what's going on for you.

And then after that, it's typically like two hours. We'll do a, we'll do like a closing rounds. Which is something along the lines of, um, you know, how are you feeling? And, and something around acknowledging yourself and the group, and then like an intention, what you're going to take out of this into the rest of your day or week.

And then we, we leave, you know, we'll, we'll hug each other, say our goodbyes, and we'll go back into our lives. And there's a WhatsApp group and guys call each other and some groups, you know, it's just that session. It's that sacred space for themselves. Um, for other guys, it's. It's that plus speaking to each other, going out to the cinema, like, you know, what's happening, what's going on for them.

But whatever it is, it's, it's, you know, it's creating that very [00:27:00] intentional space and time on a regular basis that you are committed to for yourself and the others, which is, which is what it's based around.

Amanda Parker: It also sounds like, and this is definitely more of my angle and world about like the spiritual element of this is that from my perspective, um, very often, like there's no accident about the topics that come up in that space, you know, and there's so often universal themes and what one person is experiencing Really is a collective experience, which sounds so beautiful from what you're describing that people can feel really identified that they don't even have to share their story to feel identified to know they're not alone to know that others are experiencing it.

And I'm just guessing like this would be my like worldview on it. So I'm happy to hear also if that resonates with you, [00:28:00] but that there really are these. topics that come up for that collective. And I think what's coming to me, which is so present, is, um, this event that I just hosted yesterday evening in London with, um, two psychic mediums who had been on the podcast.

Guess earlier this year, um, and they in in the channeling that they did in that evening was like Collective wisdom and it was really funny because I was looking around the room as they were saying, okay, there's a lot of whatever the themes were if it was Loneliness or because London can often feel like a city where people are really stuck self serving.

It's fast paced. People are in their own world more than even in other metropolises. And these different themes they brought up, I'm just looking around the room and everyone was like nodding. And you just knew this really was collective. This was not about one or two [00:29:00] people.

Joshua Fineman: A couple of things that came up from what you said for me.

The first is that I think there's this prevailing narrative, especially in Western culture, this like lone wolf. mentality that men need to have. I mean, it isn't just men, but if you look at the typical successful men that people point to it, they're self made, they did it on their own, you know, like they, they came from nothing and they now they're everything.

And like, you know, they're so strong and like they, you know, and it's like, that's, that's just such a load of like the greatest men in the history of this World have had incredible men support them to get to where they are. And so incredible people to support them, to get to where they are. And so I think, again, like I mentioned, the pressure, it's coming into this community.

Like men, men are coming with like, I've been trying to do it all on my own for so long and it's [00:30:00] exhausting. And so coming into a space of like, oh wow, like I'm not the only one who feels like this. And actually it's really nice that I feel like you guys hear me and see me and you'll support me with this challenge and I can do the same with you.

It's really trying to reprogram that. that narrative. And the other thing as well, which, which I love what you said, which has been really strong in me recently is around self serving and self help. And I think the power of group work, um, as a compliment to one on one work, it enables people to really experience that what they're doing isn't just for themselves, it is for everyone around them.

We were in a men's group recently, actually, and Some guys who come feel that they're much more comfortable supporting others [00:31:00] than supporting themselves. If there's a fire to put out, like, they're there in a heartbeat. If a friend needs them, they'll drop everything to be there. It's like, they're just looking for ways to be validated by others as opposed to, like, and don't get me wrong, it's incredible, like, it's amazing.

They're heroes for doing this stuff. But it can become problematic where they do so much of it that that's their comfort zone, and they're just not taking care of themselves. And by not taking care of themselves, ironically, they're not able to give more of themselves to these people. And so what I, what happened recently in a group is, um, a guy came in, he'd made a decision around work and was really worried about it, really worried whether he'd made the right decision or not.

In the group, somebody asked him something along the lines of, well, how does making that decision serve you? And he really couldn't connect to [00:32:00] the answer. He felt kind of guilty. He, um, he just didn't know what to say. And, and so I reframed the question and I said, well, how does this help you better serve others?

And immediately, There was like, you saw like there was a shift in his body and he started expressing that this thing he did for himself will enable him to show up in the way he wants to show up for others. And I think that's a really powerful thing that a lot of guys who either resist doing this work or who are in it and feel that guilt forget a lot of the time.

They forget that like you're not just doing this for yourself. I'm doing this for the people and things I care about the most. I'm, I'm not going every Friday morning for a swim because I enjoy it. I'm doing it because it means I [00:33:00] can come home and show up as the man that I want my kids to remember me as.

The more you do it, the more, the more I've done it, the more I acknowledge like, wow, this is, this is much bigger than me, what I'm doing right now.

Amanda Parker: I really want to pause on that point because I mean, I have my own coaches voice in my head. This happens often. Um, and he is often telling me on the one hand, it's not about you.

So when I'm getting in my own head, or, you know, like, I'm getting nervous about something I have to do, or maybe it's a bit of stage fright, or I'm, having a conversation and I'm feeling intimidated. He's like, it's not about you. Don't make it about you. It's really like, yes, I'm the one that's physically showing up in that space.

But what is possible, like, for example, through this conversation, like this doesn't have to do with me. I'm here. It doesn't have to do with you. Although it does, like, It's just facilitating that people hear what they need to hear in the moment and [00:34:00] they know how to get the support or help or they know that that exists for them and that they can reach out to it.

And the minute I make it about, Ooh, am I asking good questions? Am I leading the conversation? Well, like we're not even in a dialogue anymore and we're not able to actually talk about what needs to come through to support or serve whoever's listening. There's one other piece that also comes up when you're speaking, this is also for my coach, um, about stay in the work.

And he brings that to my attention often if I'm working with a client and, again, if I'm getting in my head or worrying or wondering about how something's gonna work out, you know, like I, I hosted a private retreat for a client a few, months back and there were like logistical details and it was just like just stay in the work like it doesn't matter if you sit in a closed room for 12 hours if that is going to support whatever work needs to happen [00:35:00] like you don't need a fancy agenda and all these different things like stay in the work what is going to serve then and i hear that you are also in your own words this is what you're also doing this is what you're bringing forth into these groups and you're Yeah, that's what I wanted to share there.

Joshua Fineman: I think that's what I also am continuously learning from myself as well. Like this is the practice for me is is letting go of my own ego's need to feel special, or know that I'm proving myself, or know that I'm improving, or try and detach myself from so for instance, you know, when I first started running groups, every time a man left the group I was angry.

I was resentful. I was And I processed it all and I shared it and it was all, it was all kind of, it all worked out. But I noticed like at the beginning, I took it so personally and I kind of stole that man's [00:36:00] opportunity to do something really vulnerable and difficult for a lot of guys, which is to say no, and actually more than that, to allow him to own the fact that he may have outgrown the experience that he was in.

And I, I think the more I do this work and the more groups that I run, the more I am learning that certain groups need to be there. certain tools or ways of supporting them. And other groups need other ways. Like I said, some groups, it's like we, we, we're here to show up every two weeks on the dot. We never miss it.

But like I've got a million plates spinning at home, like to communicate on WhatsApp in between to do all this stuff. It overwhelms me so much. And there's work we can do on that. But for me to say, no, that's what you should do. I feel like that's coming from a place of that's what I want this group to be, as opposed to that's the best way to serve these [00:37:00] men with where they're currently at.

Whereas there are other groups and other men where they're lapping up every opportunity to dive in more and to create more levels of commitment and accountability and contribution. And I think. Always checking in with what, I think where there used to be resistance, I try to really like push up against it and kind of prove, whereas now within the groups as well, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm much better at dancing with.

with what's really there. And it comes from that place, as you said, of like this, I'm not just doing this for me. Like, am I doing this for me? How is what I'm doing going to best support and serve this group of men?

Amanda Parker: So I'm also curious to hear from you, um, what kind of healing is possible? So if there's maybe a story that you would share either your own experience, or maybe it's someone who joined a group, and you can keep [00:38:00] confidentiality or anonymity of course, but of what was actually possible from joining a men's circle or some of the work that you've done.

Joshua Fineman: One of the men in one of my groups shared something before, which I think is really a more accurate description of what transformation is. We were doing a closing round. We kind of go through cycles. So every three months, and sometimes it's every six months, we'll recommit to our group, and part of that is acknowledging what is it that the group has given us?

And, um, one of the men in one of the groups said, you know, when I look back over the last couple of years of being in this group. I'm not a different person. I'm not like, if someone knew me from two years ago, they'd be like, Oh my God, you're like, who are you? But he said my base, the foundation of who I am has risen dramatically from where it was.[00:39:00] 

So, like, I'm listening to my wife when we're in a conversation. Maybe not every time, but, like, consciously recognizing, oh, like, I don't actually need to say or do anything here other than I really hear you. What do you need? I'm not using my phone as much when I'm with my kids because, like, I want to be present with them.

I am, um, really focused on, um, my mornings now and making sure that there's some space at the beginning of it where I'm, you know, I'm, I'm slowing myself down before speeding myself up. And there was something in that that was like, yeah, that is what transformation is. Transformation is not this like leap from one mountain to another.

It's like, a journey of a million steps that never ends that it's that you look back in like, Oh my God, like, look where I'm at now, as opposed to [00:40:00] what I'm here. And like, I'm transformed. And I, I feel like within Mench, like, there are a million of those kinds of stories. And you've got the big sexy ones of the person who moved abroad, or the person who changed their career, and you know, like all the, but like, that isn't what this is about.

Like that can happen, but this is just about those tiny, simple moments where you would have behaved. on autopilot and just kind of drifted through something, but instead you've gone, Oh, this thing is happening again. I'm going to choose to do it this way instead. That's what my experience of men's work has been.

I think that's the, what the power of this has been for many men who've gone through it as well.

Amanda Parker: Yeah. It sounds like there's this healing power in just becoming conscious about how you're living your life and the different elements that make that up. And then. [00:41:00] Literally choosing consciously. what you want to do next.

And by doing that over and over, that's the quote unquote transformation. It's so beautifully subtle. And I like that you bring that to the forefront because I'm even reflecting on myself. Oh, I use that word in a big way. And it's probably pretty scary when I'm like, your life will never be the same again.

You know, like, what do you mean? What's going to happen? Well, it, it won't.

Joshua Fineman: So sorry, just to pause you there. It won't, right? But like, so when I run my retreats, what I say to the men who are coming is like, your life is a cargo ship. And our objective here is to move the direction of that cargo ship by half a millimeter.

Because where you're going to end up in 90 years is completely different. Or hopefully it's not. I don't know. However long it's going to be in that 50 year period, whatever it is that you live for. It will be completely different to where it is now. It's just that you won't recognize it right [00:42:00] now. Like that.

And that's kind of what this way it's just shifting people from just half a millimeter into different directions. And that is transformational.

Amanda Parker: Yeah, it is. So if someone. is listening and they're sort of considering starting this path. Um, you work with people in a couple of different ways I've heard, right?

So either groups, or maybe you can share a bit about how you support men through this work.

Joshua Fineman: Yeah. So, um, so there's, uh, a few ways to access me and Mench. The first is we put on just regular, uh, events. Largely at the moment in person, we're going to be doing much more online stuff in 2025. And that's just like, come as you want, experience it.

It's nice, nice and easy. Uh, you'll get a taste of what it's like to share. Um, but there's no commitment beyond just coming and experiencing it. The second layer is [00:43:00] more Uh committed group work, which I facilitate and next year i'm quite excited That there will be more facilitators as well. So We'll be kind of expanding the opportunity for men within the community to lead within the community, which is quite cool That is a little bit more of a commitment though That's for men who are like no, I need to something like this in my life and I recognize that I want to commit to something so it becomes a practice for me.

To your point about, you know, to what we shared about transformation, if I really want to transform, then like I need to work the transformation muscle. So, there's the group work and, uh, and then the last piece is the one to one work. So, for some men, they feel at this stage of their life, they, they want to have a partner and guide to walk alongside them with a focus on themselves first because the idea of being in a group is, is maybe a bit too [00:44:00] much.

Um, and so we have one on one work as well. And then there's kind of like a blend of the three. So I have some coaching clients who are in groups who come to the swims and come to the community stuff as well. So it's kind of like, take your pick.

Amanda Parker: If you were just, or if you were to look back on when you were just starting your journey, what advice do you wish you could have given yourself back then?

Joshua Fineman: Oh, I love this question. I think I would have said, you don't have to do it on your own. You don't have to prove. and you get all your energy from working with other people that you can learn from and, uh, you'll grow quicker because of it. That's what I'd say. And even though I would have said that to myself, I don't think I would have listened back then.

Um, and in a way I'm glad because [00:45:00] Someone once said to me what the difference, I can't remember, this must be like, I'm sure this person did make it up, and it was some famous, quote by some very learned person, but they said the difference between knowledge and wisdom is, um, knowledge is coming to an answer and then just accepting that that's the answer.

Whereas wisdom is coming to an answer, spending a whole load of time basically trying to disprove whether that's right or not, and then landing at the same answer at the end, but knowing it, really knowing it, not just. understanding it theoretically. And, um, and so, yeah, I would have said that to myself, but I'm really glad I have up to now tried to, not up to now, but up to a little while ago, tried to like do it all on my own.

Um, and then, and then be like, Oh, okay. Like, I really don't have to do this like this anymore. Uh, that, that voice was right.

Amanda Parker: [00:46:00] So how can people get in touch with you?

Joshua Fineman: So I think the first thing is visit the website www. bemoremench. com and then I'm largely on LinkedIn, but recently started posting on social, so I'll share that with you and then hopefully that can be in the footnotes of the episode.

Amanda Parker: Yes, so you're gonna get all these links and more in the show notes So you'll be able to get in touch with Joshua learn more about his work and what he's creating in the world So is there any last nuggets that come to mind that you? Absolutely want to make sure people walk away with

Joshua Fineman: I feel like really compelled Just to say if there are any men listening to this or if there are any, if there's anyone who knows any men who, who may need something like just men's work generally.

It doesn't even have to be like with me or [00:47:00] mensch. I think it's really important to understand like this isn't just a nice to have, like this is, this is a real, like we're at a time where this is a, this is the only responsibility for me. It comes before it. doing this kind of work of shedding that crap that has been layered on top of you, not through anyone's fault, but it's there.

And then to be able to show up, like, take it from me, like, my wife wasn't my wife. I've been with her since I was 18. Like, there was 10 years of our life where she was basically my therapist, and it built up, like, unbelievable amounts of pain and resentment from her towards me and this connection. And we're always still on a journey of working together.

But like to look back and be like, I did not create the support systems for myself so I could show up for her at that time is not cool. That's not cool. And so like, I just urge anyone listening to this. [00:48:00] Don't see it as yeah, that might be a nice to have. See it as this is an opportunity for you to be the person that you want to be for the things and people you care about the most.

Amanda Parker: I'm so glad I asked that last question. That was beautiful. Joshua, thank you so much for spending this time with us and sharing your wisdom and also just sharing your story. I think it's going to really resonate for people who are in a similar place in their lives and really looking for how to get that support and even just the words for how to ask for it.

Joshua Fineman: Yeah.

Amanda Parker: Thank you so, so much.

Joshua Fineman: Thank you. That was great. I loved it. Thank you so much for having me, man. It was awesome.

Amanda Parker: And for everyone who's listening, thanks for tuning in to this week's episode, and see you next time. Thanks for tuning in to today's episode of Don't Step on the Blue Bells. If you enjoyed this conversation, please give the podcast a five star rating wherever you listen.And don't forget to hit subscribe and [00:49:00] follow along so you never miss a new episode.