Transcript #023- Constellations

 Kerstin Liener: [00:00:00] Everyone's asked this. I've asked this as a client, they were like, yeah, but none of these people were here. So I've seen this and I kind of feel better and I kind of feel I got some healing today, but while I'm still gonna go home to my mom and my mom's gonna still gonna be the same to me. And actually she isn't, you know, and those are those sort of, I call these sort of, you know, quietly enormous breakthroughs, you know, because nothing big happens, nothing dramatic occurs, but you just go home and the relationship just feels that little bit more peaceful.

Amanda Parker: Welcome to Don't Step on the Bluebells, the podcast where personal healing and transformation take center stage. I'm your host, Amanda Parker, and I'm a fellow seeker on the journey of personal growth. Join me as I delve into the stories of gifted healers, guides, and everyday people who have experienced remarkable transformations.

Listen in as they share their practical wisdom to enrich your everyday life. And don't forget to [00:01:00] hit subscribe and never miss a new episode. Welcome to today's episode Bluebells. Have you ever sensed invisible forces shaping your life? but struggle to identify them? Today we're exploring the fascinating world of constellation work with Kerstin Lehner, a shamanic practitioner and intuitive healer.

Kerstin reveals how this powerful technique uncovers hidden patterns in your life, showing how family history and generational dynamics, as well as sometimes invisible systems, Influence your present. But here's what makes Kerstin's approach unique. She combines constellation work with her shamanic practices and intuitive gifts, accessing deeper layers of insight and healing.

So whether you're curious about personal growth or understanding yourself better, this episode will illuminate the unseen threads connecting your past to your future. present and future. Let's dive in. Thank you so much for [00:02:00] joining us on Don't Step on the Bluebells.

Kerstin Liener: Oh, thank you so much for having me.

I'm super, super excited. And thanks for the introduction. You see a big smile already.

Amanda Parker: We have so many Uh, different touch points. It's really fascinating to me how we have ended up in this space together because we were actually connected through, um, well, a woman who was a podcast guest before. So Jodi Greenstein, who I worked with like a million years ago.

Uh, and it turns out that we also know some people very coincidentally within the shamanic circle.

Kerstin Liener: Yeah.

Amanda Parker: So, I guess it was only a matter of time before we ended up here.

Kerstin Liener: Yes, all the degrees of separation or lack thereof, we all find each other.

Amanda Parker: Yeah, it's true. So I'd love to hear before we dive into some of the juicy topics, um, yeah, just what it is that you are most excited about at the moment.

Kerstin Liener: Well, what I'm really, really [00:03:00] excited about is that I feel this sort of shift happening in the world and I don't know if you feel this and maybe some of the listeners too, is that I have the sense that people more and more almost start to remember to Encounter each other as people, you know, at a soul level, because I'm guess I'm like a soul worker and that's how I see people, um, which is sometimes a great thing and sometimes a very tricky thing, actually, um, and I'm really hopeful that that's the place that we're navigating towards as human beings.

In closer connection with each other and seeing each other more clearly and the world around us and everything. And I guess you can tell I'm an optimist, but that's what I'm very, very excited about. Just for the fact that, you know, we're having this conversation, which probably, and I can speak for myself, 5 years ago, I wouldn't have had this conversation, you know, I wasn't in the space and I probably thought Norm was in the space and I would have You know, probably felt quite anxious even talking about some of the things [00:04:00] that we're probably talking about today.

So I think it's great

Amanda Parker: Oh, I love that. Uh That reminder because the same is true for me. I mean five years ago I was just uncovering different pieces of myself and even today every time I either come into the podcast or start working with a new client, there's this bit of like, am I really, am I really my whole self?

Am I really coming out as myself every time I do this work? So it's, especially I think for people who are listening, who have maybe the nudge, because they are listening, right? Um, and have either been afraid to fully step into it, or just not really sure how it would be welcome. You're, definitely not alone.

Kerstin Liener: Definitely not. And it's becoming less of a sort of closeted society. People like all of us, and I'm sure a lot of the listeners as well. And I mean, I've, over the past few years in particular, I've sort of learned to never really, you know, underestimate, you know, how open people [00:05:00] are and how many people feel Very similar, even if they don't quite know it yet, they feel this little nudge, you know, this little tingling.

I go, there's something else going on. Um, but I've also always really over sort of overestimated why I should be afraid to come out, you know, and, and really step into who I am. And that's just, it is what it is and it's fine. Um, but it is a journey. Yeah.

Amanda Parker: It's also funny because I think that As humans, we're kind of always stepping into who we are.

And this happens to be maybe a spiritual journey or more of an awakening or whatever that looks like, but just the same as an artist who really wants to do their art and they're afraid people will judge them, or a writer who wants to publish a novel and they don't know if people will accept it. So it's like, All of us are still always continuously coming out as ourselves, whatever it is that we're doing.

Kerstin Liener: Agree, agree. And I think in [00:06:00] some, in a sort of wider sense, I think that's what healing is about, really. You know, it's, it's not always, it's not about fixing something that's broken. It's kind of, I always think about it like coming back to factory settings. you know, and we're almost spending the sort of time we have in this life in like earth school, finding our way back to actually, this is who we are.

And that's the sort of opportunities we're given that we can either take or not. But that's kind of, for me, that's what healing is really all about, because, you know, we want to be whole and fixed in ourselves. And it's just pushing ourselves in the right kind of way or allowing ourselves, you know, to be pushed in the right kind of way by life and all the opportunities offers really.

Amanda Parker: Today, we're going to be focusing Specifically on the topic of constellations and I know there's so many different topics we could have chosen for this chat, um, but just to give people an idea, how would you describe that work that you do with constellations?

Kerstin Liener: Yes, um, so maybe [00:07:00] to start with, you know, what is constellations actually about, um, Because it sort of shows up in many, many guises.

So Constellation was created, um, I believe in the late 70s by a German gentleman called Bert Hellinger. And it's really founded on the premise that we as human beings really experience life through relationships with social species. And actually we, we live within these systems and they're called systems, which is primarily, of course, our family, but it can also be, you know, our workplace, how we interact with other places in the world.

But also, In a way, the relationship that we have within ourselves and with all the different aspects and what constellations work does, and it's often called family constellations because often it focuses on the family, but there's so much more to it, is that we use this method to almost surface, you know, what dynamics exist in the system and observe those.

And then we kind of try and make it better to achieve this thing that it's called, and I know the German word because I was trained in German, but it [00:08:00] is, it's sort of, um, it's harmonious. Um, it's sort of a harmonious way of existing. Um, and the lovely thing about it, the way it works is you, you open a space just in a way that we, we have the space here.

Um, and it's, it's the easiest parallel to draw is like you have a stage and you have actors, which is your family, for example, and all the members. Um, they are represented through actors or representatives who in a big constellations are actual people who will stand in for your mom and your dad and your sister, who will step on the stage and embody these people or these aspects.

And then the script sort of starts to reveal itself. You can start to physically observe the relationships between all those parts of the system, all these people in the system, and then through observing and interacting with them, you can try to get to the bottom of what's going on and then mend or heal.

All the sort of blocks or traumas or things that families [00:09:00] sometimes carry for generations and generations and kind of make it better. And that, as I said, can happen on a big stage, quite literally. So a lot of big family constellations happen like that, and I would recommend to anyone to try and do it.

And also almost to To also experience the constellation as a representative. So say this is not about me, but I'm going to be your mom, you know, and stand in there because you will actually, it's, it's an energetic space. It is energy work, even though it is often seen as something that's quite worldly and it's great because it's really accessible because of that.

But if you stand there and you literally feel what this person feels, and you might feel drawn to someone else, or repulsed by another person, or get really angry, and you can verbalize that and act it out, or you can do it in a very, very small way, like I often do with, um, I've got these little, like, Playmobil, I've got them here, um, like these little Playmobil figurines, and you work just on a table, just, you know, just the two of you, and it can be, you know, quite a small and simple setup.[00:10:00] 

And the really Amazing thing about constellations is that you, you see what's happening and you surface everything that's happening. Um, and therefore it's, it's an experience. You're part of the healing work. You're not, someone else isn't doing it for you. You're not rationally kind of, you know, clasping at straws, talking through it, um, or thinking why, and you know, what happened, et cetera.

You see it and you heal it. And therefore it's really, really powerful. And constellations in and of itself. Is, you know, a modality that is used. Um, and if that's the only thing you ever do, that's really beneficial. The way, and I know you asked how I use Constellation, so I use it in a slightly different way.

So sometimes I might work, um, with clients and do a pure Constellation work and then we're done and that's it. And it's often very, very life changing, that work in itself. But I found over the years, Um, when working with people, because I work very intuitively, I have, as you [00:11:00] said, this toolbox, and depending on who shows up and what they show up with, the sessions kind of evolve, and I will just intuitively draw on whichever tool and mix and match, um, whatever is appropriate, feels appropriate for them, for the need they have at the, at the time, but also for the type of person they are and how they are.

involved they want to be and how much they want to see it versus feel it versus trusting me of just doing it. Um, and so for me, Constellations has really become almost, almost a framework for running a session. It is, it is bringing the problem or the issue or whatever the, the niggle is out on the board.

And then as slowly all these dynamics or funny, you know, funny Constellations essentially start revealing themselves. I then might press pause and go, okay, there's an opportunity. There's a, an emotional block that's just come up. Let's do some emotion code on this. Or I might get my drama and say, actually.[00:12:00] 

There's a need for soul retrieval and then, you know, almost kind of do that piece of healing and then get back into the constellation. And usually it moves, you know, as we do this, um, the system starts moving and healing and getting better and clearer. So

Amanda Parker: there's, okay, there's so much now. So One thing, and I'll just share because my, I haven't experienced a constellation myself or actually having done that work myself.

But I do remember a number of years ago, a colleague of mine had started going through a process. It was a group process and it was in Germany. And they, the story she would tell me, and I'm, I'm sharing this just to make it a bit tangible if someone's really uncertain what this actually is. Cause for me, this helps so much.

Like, she was struggling with a number of different things in her life and through the Constellation work, she was sharing that like, someone in the group would act out the role of her mother, someone else would act out the role of her father, [00:13:00] and there would be situations where, you know, they would have to actually roleplay things that had happened in her childhood so she could re experience them and understand what was beneath the surface.

And then in that particular case, Then she would choose someone else to act out her ideal mother or ideal father and then they could come in and Maybe say all the things she had wished her parents would say to her or hold her in a certain way so that she could Actually get some of the healing through that so I don't know if that's the same way that you work But I remember thinking Whoa, that is powerful.

Kerstin Liener: Yes, it is. It is. And that is one way of working. And I sometimes work like that, um, because it is, it is, again, it's all about manifesting the scenario for real. And therefore either the clients or representatives can act that out and feel it and, and through feeling it and acting it through, it starts to shift.

Um, even if those other people like their [00:14:00] mother, et cetera, are not even present. And it's hugely, hugely powerful. Um, And this is one way of doing this. The other way of doing this, which I do more frequently, is to almost, um, see a situation unfold. So you might start with a situation like that to say, I don't know, for example, a client comes in and they might say, um, I don't ever felt like I got a lot of love from my, from my mother.

She always held back. And I kind of felt lonely as a child, et cetera. And you put them together. Um, Or you put them and a representative or even two representatives. So the client can watch, which can be really powerful as well, because they're almost a little bit more, more objective, um, and not completely caught in and triggered and caught in their feelings and both of those work.

Um, and you start to have that interaction and what might surface actually is that, and you'd be surprised this happens quite often, especially if you go back further, there might've been another child. Okay. that this mother has lost [00:15:00] before, and therefore she's blocked really from, you know, through grief from expressing that love.

But this, this child in the room never knew that, or never really paid attention to that, because that child, she might even be a miscarriage, you know, might have never even been born, doesn't really exist in the family, doesn't really have a place in the family. But actually it does and it's at the cause of so much pain and so much pain, not just for the mother, but for the child that's standing there as a client, you know, grown up and suffering today.

And then by even just bringing in and acknowledging that it starts shifting massively. And it's, it's kind of making the family whole and you go, well, actually, there's not. Two siblings, there's three siblings and all of a sudden, you know, it kind of is like dominoes everything kind of goes and and the most amazing thing about this type of work is what then happens afterwards when then those clients go back home and Often they everyone's asked us.

I've asked us as a client. So like [00:16:00] yeah, but none of these people were here So I've seen this and I kind of feel better and I kind of feel I got some healing today, but while I'm still going to go home to my mom and my mom's gone, it's still going to be the same to me. And actually she isn't, you know, and those are those sort of, I call these sort of, you know, quietly enormous breakthroughs, you know, because nothing big happens, nothing dramatic occurs.

But you just go home and the relationship just feels that little bit more peaceful and that little bit more loving. And she doesn't know any better, but the client really notices. And all of a sudden it kind of spreads, you know, like dominoes into the whole family. It's, it's, it's spectacular work. I really, really love it.

Amanda Parker: Well, also what I'm hearing, because you do have a remarkable skill set, and I mean skills is even the wrong word, but like your toolbox is remarkable, and you do shamanic work, and you do healing work, and energy work, and I know you're saying this is also an energetic practice, [00:17:00] yes, and, but Probably a lot of practitioners don't work that way.

So there is also this added benefit that they work with you in this constellation, but you're also maybe able to access from the spiritual perspective or your guides information. That's hiding beneath the surface that helps also make this more powerful and shifts the energy within the family as well.

Kerstin Liener: Completely, completely. And I would say, you know, many, many, there are many incredible constellation practitioners out there who wouldn't consider themselves energy workers, as you say. Um, I would suggest that probably they do energy work without realizing it because, you know, we observe with our eyes, you know, this whole, you know, nonverbal communication type thing, you know, we observe a little bit with our eyes and then a lot with our hearts and with our other senses.

And when they work, they probably work energetically without knowing it. But it does, I find it really, really helpful. The fact that I am, you know, I am a spiritual worker and I, I am [00:18:00] connected to people. That realm essentially in that to that sort of perception of the world that A, I kind of have good direct access to what is happening beneath, but also in many, many family systems in particular, a lot of the woundings go back so many generations.

They're way past, you know, anyone who anyone can recollect in their family. Um, so with a normal constellation where you start essentially with a family tree, um, You can't quite get to the root of where that wounding or that trauma came from when you work energetically and I can go into the ancestors.

So essentially, you know, you might have some real people in the room, but then I bring the ancestors in and no one knows what they're called or, you know, anything really, but you can say, Oh, this started with you. And I will start, you know, tapping in and going, well, okay, I can see that person X, Y, Z, however many generations back experienced this.

And this is what happened. As, [00:19:00] you know, as sometimes, you know, unbelievable as that might sound, what is really interesting, you then look at the client and they break into tears or they react really strongly because it's just the truth. It's in their body, it's in their souls, and they intuitively know, That's where it started.

And then you heal on it. It's amazing because you also know, you know, you've not just kind of cleared up a little problem in a family. You've actually cleared up something that has blighted generations of generations and would also continue going forward, you know, with this person's children and their children, et cetera.

So, you know, in a sense, By doing that work and sometimes maybe going a little further or a little broader, um, actually I always feel those clients, they do a great service. To their families or to the systems or even to themselves, if they're just working with their own little internal system, um, it's, uh, it's a real gift for them or it's a gift that they're giving themselves, I suppose it sounds a bit smoochy, but that's kind of what it is.

Yeah. [00:20:00] 

Amanda Parker: Just to also make quite concrete the idea of. Like, let's say generational trauma or things that are passed down through generations. And I'm going to ask a question, actually, that I often have myself. So on the one hand, you have your, let's just presume, your mother, then your grandmother, then your great grandmother, and this.

But we also have the concept of like, the ancestors. Mm hmm. And. I'm always a little bit confused, to be honest, like, what's the difference? Is it the same thing? Is it different? Or is it like, hundreds and hundreds of years of the same lineage keeps coming back? I mean, what are your thoughts on that and how that might actually pass?

Down as well to who we are today and what we experience in this life.

Kerstin Liener: Yeah, absolutely. And I've asked myself those questions as well. And I've asked other people. Um, I think we start calling them the ancestors when we don't know anymore who they are. You know? But actually my grandmother is my [00:21:00] ancestor.

My mom is my ancestor. It just, we just assume when we say ancestors that they have to be like dead people, long forgotten, and they become this sort of amorphous mass of, you know, people who've been before. The ancestors. Yeah, the ancestors. And, and also it kind of elevates them to the people who have a lot of knowledge, you know, and are sort of slightly above it all.

And, but in fairness, and actually is kind of true, I observed that, you know, obviously when people when people pass over. And they sort of come back essentially as ancestors, um, and, and give us some of this insight and offer some of their services because often they are very helpful spirits to have around when you've been, you know, I work more in my sort of shamanic vein, um, because they are no longer sort of connected to this earthly life.

Um, they do have a bit more perspective. Um, and they do sort of, uh, they are more disconnected from, from, you know, those sort of really high feelings and things like that. And also the roles that they have. More disconnected, [00:22:00] you say? They're a bit more disconnected. More disconnected. Yeah. They have a little bit more distance, you know, to all the mess that maybe even that they might have created or inadvertently have created.

Um, and they're also, And, and, and you know what, it is a really tricky subject and it can be really triggering for people because many, many people have ancestors that they know of, or they have some concept of that maybe didn't do some very nice things, you know, um, and coming to terms with that can actually be really difficult.

And seeing them as loving ancestors who, yes, they've been here and they've done whatever they've done and they've kind of, you know, come to earth playing whatever role they chose to play. Um, but they're no longer in that role and therefore they can offer a great deal of wisdom, but also a great deal of sort of peacemaking within a family.

I mean, I've, I've worked with and witnessed many constellations, you know, in a cultural context, for example, in, um, you know, in [00:23:00] Germany. And pretty much every constellation you get into, you get into world war type issues. And everyone's family has had either a perpetrator and or a victim, you know, and I think every other country in the world will have very similar things.

And that's a really tricky subject. Um, that often is at the core of a lot of these, um, issues. These issues that surface now, because it's a, there's a lot of shame and guilt and things that weren't talked about and people lost and all of those sorts of things, which probably again, wouldn't come out if we didn't look at ancestry, because a lot of these people aren't really known to us anymore.

Amanda Parker: I think it's, it's also interesting because it just highlights that in modern society, like, especially with the internet and Instagram and Tik TOK, we as a collective are trying to take personal responsibility for the things that are happening in our life, and we need to do our healing, and we need to set our boundaries, and we need to cut people off who are bad for us, and da da da da da.

[00:24:00] Um, and yes, yes, yes. And also, there's a lot of stuff stuff that's just within us, that actually isn't necessarily within our control or that we didn't create or that we can't just say, you know what, I'm not going to do this thing anymore because it's almost like genetically in your DNA and needs to be healed on a much deeper level.

Kerstin Liener: Yes. Yes. And I think that's how. You know, any energy work or any soul work really kind of gets underneath the bonnet, because there's so many things that, as you say, either are things that, you know, we've been gifted with by our ancestors. Thank you very much. Um, and how often do, and I know this from myself, you go, I keep doing this, you know, here's the pattern.

I just can't get to it. Why am I doing this? This belief you have, it makes no sense. It's like, It's not your fault. You kind of got it. You know, you inherited it. Um, but you, you know, you feel the consequences and it's up to you to heal it. Um, and, and I guess that's, that's the one thing. [00:25:00] Um, but then equally there might be other things that happen, you know, to all of us during our lives, but that sits so deeply.

That no amount of, you know, kind of more conventional therapy, etc. can get to because we don't know what it is. We just feel the pain, but we don't know what's causing it until it kind of rises far enough to the surface to then show up in our bodies, you know, in disease and, you know, aches and pains or, psychological issues, etc.

But a lot of this stuff sort of starts a little bit deeper. And, you know, you can ask people however much you want, they're not going to know the answer until you actually look energetically, I think. And that's where all these different, I guess, these different practices start adding up a little bit.

Amanda Parker: Well, it's like listening to you talk, I'm kind of like, why Like, how does everyone not know about this, you know, like, why don't we all know? We all go get our constellations done. We figure this stuff out and voila, you know, [00:26:00] because it seems so fundamental to living a healthy life. And it's so unknown to most of the population.

Completely. It seems.

Kerstin Liener: It does. It could be so easy. I mean, not easy, but much simpler, right? And I would, I would say if there's anyone, you know, listening who goes, Do you know my life is great? Everything is amazing. I would still say do a constellation. You'll learn a lot. Right. Um, because it is so revealing and there's so much to learn, even if everything's hunky dory and if it's not hunky dory, then all the better.

It's um, it's very, very powerful, but I agree everyone should be doing this or something else. I mean, there's, you know, and obviously you have a lot of these conversations about all these different modalities and ways into this. There's so many ways. And it's so simple, really, and we can all do it, you know, it's not, this is not limited to some people who [00:27:00] kind of get it more at all.

Amanda Parker: Yeah, I think that's, that's an interesting, um, development for most of the healers that I speak to. Not every healer. Some people really are just, you know, they're kind of born into it and it never leaves them. But for the most part, there's like a reckoning at some point in a healer's life where they're going through life and things just don't quite fit or they find this modality or something happens and it's like you can't ignore it anymore.

And I think for me, when I started the podcast, I had this I don't know. Healers, you know, are like holier than thou, these people, you know? And then I'm like, Oh, everyone just has normal jobs and they're well educated and they're living their lives and all of this. It's not, it's not. like healers are just all of us.

And it's just some people have tapped into those gifts or dedicate themselves to it. And some people either don't or haven't yet.

Kerstin Liener: Yes, yes. [00:28:00] And some people discover some of these things and they might never be healers, but they're just good practitioners with themselves, you know, as well. I think the doors are so much more open.

Um, and Yeah, I agree. I mean, there's, there's obviously many, many cultures, more traditional indigenous cultures and where we used to be, you know, hundreds of years ago, where I think healers were, healers gift or healers destiny was probably spotted earlier and nurtured and it had a real place in that society.

And in our society, it just, you know, Well, more so now, but in the past, it just didn't. Um, and you kind of become a healer despite, you know, all the sensible things that you're supposed to do with your life up until that point until I think, yeah, whatever happens, something breaks, something cracks, and, and you find yourself pursuing this path, um, that actually you probably should have been on, on for all of your life.

Um, But you just haven't, yeah, you just haven't had enough pain, I suppose, to discover it. [00:29:00] Yeah. And I think that's, I mean, certainly every healer I know falls in that category, I have to say.

Amanda Parker: Yeah. Well, that's a really great transition because I'd love to hear how did you start this kind of work? So what brought you to this path of, well, constellations, of healing?

Kerstin Liener: Yes. Um, well, like most other people, so this isn't going to be a unique story. Um, I got to, I mean, I, I had a very conventional childhood. Um, although in hindsight, you know, my mother could always talk to dead people and my great grandmother had these great premonitions. And I remember seeing things when I was little that I completely obviously then ignored, you know, and kind of buried for, you know, when I was growing up thinking, that's just crazy stuff.

You don't do things like that. And, and went through, you know, again, as most people, a very conventional, you know, career and all of these sorts of things, and I got to a point where, [00:30:00] um, I had a bad relationship breakup, um, and it's kind of, that cracked me open, and I got to the point where I felt I kind of lost myself.

And thought, you know, who are you even, you know, this life that you're leading here and, you know, role playing really, it's not really you anymore. And, and I had at that point already started, you know, dabbling a lot in meditation and mindfulness and yoga and all the sort of more accessible sort of worldly ends of the healing spectrum, I would say.

Um, and, um, and then someone introduced me to shamanism. Um, actually my astrologer did. So I wasn't quite so worldly, I suppose, but that was quite normal for me. My mother always went to an astrologer even when I was little. So I was like, of course, everyone goes to an astrologer. So maybe I'm a bit more hippie than it looks.

Um, and she said, you should try this. And, and I had so much resistance. I can't even tell you. I thought no, these are just, you know, really strange people and I'm this western person and I, I [00:31:00] can't, long story short, I ended up in this workshop, up. people drumming and singing and I thought this was like the weirdest thing in the, in the world.

And I started journeying and my guide showed up and said, finally, here you are, that's what you're doing. And I thought, damn, okay. And I knew it. It's like, Oh God, I wish I hadn't done this. I'm in the world of trouble now because my life's just going to, I just knew it. And I knew they were right. I knew they were right.

And I knew I'd been suppressing this my whole life. And then I started digging deeper and, you know, so my first, my most, my fundamental training is, I guess, is, is the shamanic training. Um, but then I also felt very much, and I see this a lot in, in, in people I work with, because most of my clients are kind of really worldly sort of, you know, normal type, you know, people.

Um, it's how do you bridge, you know, how do you make that bridge between, something that is much more spiritually connected, et cetera, and [00:32:00] sort of normal life. You know, I'm like, well, I'm also a mother and I'm a taxpayer and I need to do all of this. And that stretch is actually quite far for a lot of clients.

Um, and I started to become much more interested in, in, in some of the other modalities that are still energy work or close to it, but a little bit more worldly. So constellation started coming in and I had a real affinity from that right from the beginning, because It is almost like, sometimes it is, I mean, it's like ancestral work, but rather me doing it by myself.

They're out there, you know, they're real and people can see them, you know, it's a manifestation of that work And I thought that's just so cool and people can interact with them and talk to them Um, but then I started adding on other modalities like emdr and emotional in emotion code Um because I felt there was often so many really deep emotional blocks that people were bumping into that just needed a special kind of modality to help them through it.

And also something that [00:33:00] again was quite accessible. So accessibility, I think for me is really important. Um, and that was always the guidance I had was around, you know, you're not the type of healer of, and they do exist and they're amazing. Um, and more in the olden days who would sort of sit on a mountain and meditate and kind of go, Oh, come here.

My children, everything is gray. Um, I'm like a real world, I'm like the pragmatic shaman kind of person, you know. I'm a real world sort of person and that's the kind, that's the people I work with mostly, to be honest.

Amanda Parker: It's so fascinating because you explored shamanism or you started learning shamanism and training as a practitioner and then started the constellations and EMDR, which are, I mean, they're not even traditional therapy, but they're much more widely accepted.

So that's funny that it didn't like the shamanism didn't take you then into the light codes or whatever else, you know, it didn't take you even further off the The [00:34:00] ground, let's say, um, but actually took you closer to the ground, like as a translator, almost for a lot of what the shamanic work is for people to actually be able to touch it and reach it.

Kerstin Liener: Yeah. And that's exactly it. And I know it's kind of backwards in a way. And it did feel I did as I was learning these more conventional modalities, I often struggled with like, would it just be easier to just, you know, you just do a shamanic journey and you ask the guys and you just. Sorted, whoop dee doo, you know, it's very simple.

Um, but I felt so strongly that And also because of my background and just the way I am that, you know, I could be that sort of person more on the ground, translating, um, translating and making, making all of this work a little bit more accessible and just having the tools to open those doors and not being, and I'm very woo woo, don't get me wrong, I do all of the light codes and I do all of that sort of stuff too, um, I'm all up for that, um, but I [00:35:00] felt for me personally, what you know, what people out there needed was something that is a little bit more approachable.

Um, but and oddly enough, once they sit there and I said, well, actually I could see, you know, there's, you know, something X, Y, Z that I can do and actually shamanic work is the right way. They're like, okay, we've got the drum and here we go, you know, they're actually really open to it, but they probably wouldn't come in thinking that that was going to happen to them.

Amanda Parker: Yeah. It's just really interesting. If you were just advertising a shamanic drum journey, people wouldn't come in.

Kerstin Liener: Yeah.

Amanda Parker: That's fascinating. It really speaks to me too, because that's definitely like the client space that I'm in. And I've tried for years to like define it. differently, but at the end of the day, the people who come in, you know, whether they're spiritual or not, like there's a curiosity and an openness and a willingness to go deeper in their life.

And I don't think they really care how in the end, they just, It's a feeling of trust. Is this going to work? [00:36:00] Are you the person who can support me? Yes or no? Um, and I know for myself, if I'm like very far out there, I mean, maybe it just changes the clientele. Let's just, but it also might make it harder for specific types of people to be able to get the help that they really need.

Kerstin Liener: Yeah, exactly. And it does evolve. And I've been on the same journey as, you know, if you ask me, what do I do? Oh, you know, that's quite hard to describe because. It changes for every person I work with and it evolves and I almost felt, yeah, I have to match up to the type of clients who, you know, need someone like me.

And that's kind of, that's kind of how I work.

Amanda Parker: So like, as you've unfolded these different areas of expertise, how, how did you decide or how did they show up for you that it was like, this is what I learned and then this in the midst? What was that like?

Kerstin Liener: Yeah. Um, it just happens. Yeah. You know, these [00:37:00] things kind of find us.

Um, these things sort of find us. And, and there's other things I've learned that I don't really speak about because I think, well, okay, that was interesting, but it's not me. You know? Um, and, again, I'm, I'm a curious person and I kind of want to, you know, I, at the end of the day I want to, you know, See how people work and, you know, what happens and where stuff comes from and how it gets healed.

And what, what is the highest potential that people have and anything that explores that I'm interested in, I'm going to, you know, have a little nose into it. And what I've, what I've noticed, um, when, when I did training, I did part of my coaching training and part of the reason I chose it was actually very multifaceted because there are many, you know, certifications out there that are very, very deep on one modality.

Okay. And I did a training that was longer, but it actually gave me the opportunity to explore different things. So, you know, I'm competent at doing a number of things, but there's a, there's a few things among them, like constellations, for example, that [00:38:00] it just resonates with me. And I just find it easy and it's just a natural thing.

And almost for me, because I work energetically first and foremost, if I can work without my brain engaging too much, then that's the right modality for me, you know, I can do, I mean, I can do a wonderful NLP type thing, but my brain is really going. And I always wonder, I'm like, and it's probably good and I can probably help the client, but it's not that extra, however many percent that my intuition actually, you know, contributes, which I think is probably quite a lot.

Amanda Parker: Yeah. Hmm. That's a great response and great navigational tool for me and everyone listening, like if it's really an uphill struggle and it's hard and you have to really, really, really work hard. Not that that can't also pay off, but there's things that will come more naturally to you and will feel better and it, it can be easier, like it can actually feel good.

Yeah, exactly. As I have like, [00:39:00] as I have like 10 books on the table that I'm just like, come on, you're almost there.

Kerstin Liener: Yes. Yes. And there's so much out there that is so cool, you know, and sometimes it's just, okay, I'm just going to learn a little bit about that, but I don't need to go deep into it. And also I found with some of the modalities, I kind of stepped out of them afterwards going, okay, no, so this is not really something that I would use for my work, but it was really important for me because I actually solved something that I was dealing with.

You know, so they kind of, so I was like, okay, I did a course on this and that was actually great therapy for me. Thank you very much. You know, um, great, you know, so it's not, it's not lost. It's not a waste of time, but I think if it resonates, it's great. Someone once said to me, unless it's a loud yes, it's a no.

And I struggle with this, because I want to say yes to a lot of things, but that's really helped me sort of navigate the millions of options out there.

Amanda Parker: I give all of my clients some form of a pendulum, and I say, okay, it's time to start getting clear on [00:40:00] your yes or no, because, I mean, for me, it's also something that's always a challenge and I have to check in a few times like what is yes what is no because at the base that's already so helpful to know is this actually the right way forward especially for those of us who love to learn and explore yeah

Kerstin Liener: it's like kid in a candy store right yeah

Amanda Parker: so what would you say is something that people often misunderstand about the work that you do

Kerstin Liener: I think the greatest understanding is That people think because I'm a healer that I will just fix them, you know, like Harry Potter, you know, and I'll wave some wand and everything will be okay.

Um, and actually not a lot of those people find their way to me. Cause I'm usually the last person after people have tried lots of other things. Then they go to the shamanic practitioner or do some constellations or things like that, then I have to be very clear and say, well, [00:41:00] You're the person healing.

You're the person doing the work. I'm here to help you. I'm guiding you. I'm facilitating as I'm trying to make this journey as easy as possible and as sort of straightforward as possible. I don't go like this and you know, I, I provoke healing in you. That's what I do.

Amanda Parker: So they still have to actually do the work and do the healing themselves.

Yeah. But you can definitely shortcut that process either by helping them with the energy healing, but also just helping them see. what they weren't able to see on their own.

Kerstin Liener: Exactly.

Amanda Parker: What were some of those, like, because everything so far sounds like it was a bit of an organic process, and one thing opened, and then the next door, and you made all these choices, and here you are.

But I'm sure there was some challenges there in the pathway. So what were some of those? Maybe there's just one specific, like, challenge or barrier that you found yourself facing on this journey to [00:42:00] becoming the Constellation Worker, the Shamanic Practitioner, the Healer that you are today.

Kerstin Liener: Yeah, I think, I think there's two challenges that I've encountered, and one is quite a practical one, and one is more of an internal one.

I think on the practical side, it's kind of making that transition from someone who's in a normal corporate nine to five, And then steps into this work. Um, and it's, it's more of a question of, because it's, it's possible, you know, you, you start off, you divide your time, et cetera, and you build up a practice and all of that.

And it can happen quite gradually. Um, but it is almost shifting from. You know, from being one type of person into this other type of person and any sort of My guess soul work really requires you to be kind of calm and clear and grounded Um, and you can't have too many other things swirling around in your life.

So almost creating that space Space and that headspace, um, for, for this work, um, in amongst, you [00:43:00] know, a life where all sorts of other things go on, just like same for the clients. I mean, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm the same. Um, that, that has been a great challenge and it's just learning to balance that and to some extent compartmentalize something.

Um, and the, the other, which I think greater challenge is this whole new references earliest, this whole coming out of the closet. Um, for some bizarre reason, you know, I had, and I know a lot of my, my HeLa friends, um, experience similar things, have this real fear of being seen and being judged and being misunderstood and, and all of that.

Um, And that's really held me back for very, very long times. Even like, you know, what do you put on your LinkedIn profile? You know, what do you put, you know,

I'm like, you know, I'm like the soul, I'm the, I'm soul medicine LinkedIn, I'm, you know, something else. And, you know, it's just all of these sort of and it's kind of silly even saying these things out loud. I remember, I got some, when I [00:44:00] opened my studio, like my, that was a big deal. I opened a physical space that people could come to, you know, it's like, Oh my God, it's real now.

There's, you know, you can Google map me and all of that. And, and I, I printed some, some little magnetic signs that I could put on the side of my car. So I'm like, I'm an advertising person, you know, um, that's where I come from. Like advertising is great. And these things were on my dining table for five weeks.

And I kept walking past them and staring at them and thought, literally thought if I put these things on the car and drive out on the road. I was going to get, you know, something horrible was going to happen. And then I did and nothing happened. And everyone was like, this is great. Of course, that really suits you.

Can I come? And I'm like, oh, you know, but so that's such an, it's such a crazy process, but I guess it's part of it.

Amanda Parker: Well, I think in our first conversation, which was a couple weeks ago now, I think that you said this to me. I'm going to just say it. I think you did. You can [00:45:00] confirm. But like, is there a reason you don't call yourself a healer?

Or there was something in, I don't know if you had said that, but I heard that In sequence from like five people in a week, and I was just like, . I guess I can just own that word and that's okay. , yes. . I guess you're, I'm like, yeah, I, I practice healing things. Thank you. Yeah. .

Kerstin Liener: Yeah.

Amanda Parker: Yeah, exactly. It's like,

Kerstin Liener: I mean, I don't tell anyone.

Yeah. Yeah. But it, and, and I dunno what it is, if it's, and I don't even think, is it our society or is it our reverence for like. Real healers, you know, the really big ones that we just killed. Oh my God. I, I can't be. I know you had Sandra Ingerman on your podcast a while back. And she's, I mean, as far as shamanic practitioners go, she is like the, you know, the first and foremost.

And I've been so lucky. I've trained with her. She's just remarkable. And I'm like, Oh my God. Oh my God. You know? And if I say, well, if I do this, I kind of compare myself. Oh [00:46:00] my God, how dare I, you know, it's, it's just one of those things. Yeah.

Amanda Parker: I had that conversation. I was in Santa Fe a couple of months ago, um, at Equus.

I can link to it just because it was so phenomenal. So the woman who runs it, it's like a horse. therapy and horse coaching and you work together with the horses, which was incredibly powerful because they sort of showcase all the things you're trying to hide from. And I said something along those lines and I was like, well, I had, you know, Sandra Ingerman on the podcast.

And as long as she's a shamanic person, Practitioner than like, what am I, you know? And she's like, Oh, that's an attractive one. Huh? Like that belief, that belief is, uh, you can hold that forever, you know? Maybe she'll consolate around that.

Kerstin Liener: Maybe I should as well, actually. Yeah.

Amanda Parker: Yeah. But it, it is funny because there's.

Um, I mean, if you're really a healer and you're working in the light and your [00:47:00] mission is to support people, like you want as many healers on the planet as possible and you wanna train them and you want them to grow, and there's no sense of like competition or scarcity in how many people can help people heal.

And especially like, yeah, especially within shamanism or the shamanic practice, which is really about like elevating earth and taking care of the earth and all the creatures, like we want people to be in a good place. We want them happy and healthy and the more people, like the more seeds that we can sprinkle around the globe of people who can help make that possible, then the better.

Yeah. So.

Kerstin Liener: Yeah, completely. And I, you know, and I sometimes think. I'm doing, you know, by trying to make myself smaller or feeling like that, that's doing a disservice. All I need to do is show up, you know, show up, be of service, do my thing. If people need me, they will come. It's actually quite simple. Um, yeah, [00:48:00] not let all my other stuff get in the way.

Amanda Parker: Well, I think the, the other stuff is always the testament to who you're serving as well because for me, those are the experiences all of my clients are having. And then every time I think I've worked on something and it comes back up and I'm like, damn it. And I just worked on this with a client and I'm like, okay, I've got to figure this out now because I'm never going to be able to help them navigate that situation if I'm still sitting here and like, Oh, I don't know.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I have certain clients and it comes in waves, like I'm speaking specifically about like coaching clients, and they bring up all the triggers. They're telling me, oh, and there's this and this and this, and I'm like, me too. Me too. Yeah.

Kerstin Liener: And you go, oh, is this, why is this all coming to me? I guess.

Okay. Yeah. You know? Um, yeah. Exactly. But isn't it just fascinating how we all get the clients we need, you know, and the clients, and I think clients just don't realize that. And it's not their problem to realize anyway, as long as they feel [00:49:00] better when they leave the session. Is it? How much they teach us, you know, and how much we learn in that process is, it's, it's almost like, you know, that's, you know, and this is what this sort of in shamanic work, you know, that's very important as well.

Because every time you heal, you get healing. There's always a little thank you from the universe. It's, it's great.

Amanda Parker: So is there anything that you wish you had known when you first started on this journey? Like something that you just wish had been clear to you earlier on that you now in your wiser self understand?

Kerstin Liener: Um, yeah. And I think it goes back to what we just talked about. I wish I had known that I can do this legit and it's not a scary thing to do and I should just get on with it. Basically, I think that's the biggest learning. And also that being, you know, being in a, in, in more of a, yeah, soul spiritual caring, a soul carer, um, is not binary and opposing to [00:50:00] being in the real world and having quite a normal life.

And those things aren't in opposition to one another. And there is tension sometimes, of course there is, but that's fine. It's not a choice. It's not an either, or I think

Amanda Parker: we can all

Kerstin Liener: be both.

Amanda Parker: Yeah, and they probably each strengthen each other quite a lot.

Kerstin Liener: And I think as healers, you know, we, one of our, the most important skills we bring is our empathy.

And we can't empathize if we don't experience some of these things ourselves.

Amanda Parker: So if there's someone who's listening who's kind of like still a bit hiding and curious and maybe they want to step out or, or learn something more, is there any piece of advice that you would give to them?

Kerstin Liener: I would say, you know, if they are, um, if they're on the path where they're thinking maybe I can do some sort of healing work or offer something or coaching or something like that is start working with people who you trust.

behind the scenes, you know? I [00:51:00] mean, I sort of work with my family and my friends and, you know, there's, you know, we all have those friends who are really open and curious and we know won't judge us. Just do it. Just do it. Just do it in a safe space. Find a safe space. You don't need to go all out straight away.

Start small. Oh, that is such good advice.

Amanda Parker: Listen to that advice, everyone who's listening. Um, yeah, I know a lot of us think we have to go big. And you have to like go all out and like bells and whistles and you're actually not ready yet.

Kerstin Liener: No, no. And actually, and maybe that's not your journey. And that's fine too.

You know, if, if all you ever end up doing is help your best friend through a divorce. That's great. That's great. And it's enough. And then if that leads to more things, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's when, when they stop smoking or something, it goes one day at a time, you know, one day at a time, it's very similar, I think.

Amanda Parker: So just to give people a bit [00:52:00] more clarity on Um, the way that you work and how you work, um, because I know that you also live in different places. So do people come meet you face to face, do they meet you online, and if someone's listening and they're like, okay, I'm ready, like, how do we do this? How do they get in touch and what for?

Kerstin Liener: So the easiest way to get in touch with me is to, um, for example, get in touch via email through my website, for example, or through my various sort of social profiles. And I offer. Like a little 15 minute or so free chat to start with, because a lot of people, you know, before they book a session, they kind of really want to know, am I right for them?

How does it even work? Is it weird? Have they got the right type of issue? So before even going into a full session set up, we can have a little conversation and almost make a plan for how, how can this work in the best way? Um, and I, I do work live, you know, one on one. Um, I do work live with groups as well.

But I do a lot of [00:53:00] work now online or completely remotely. I mean, the beautiful thing with energy work, it literally makes no difference whether I'm sitting with someone or I'm somewhere else, you know, hours later doing it. Um, I feel, and it really depends on the client. If, if you're a client who really benefits from that physical experience and interaction, be it online or in person, then do that.

Some people are like, do you know what? I've got this thing. Can you just look at it and then tell me after what, what happened? Um, and that's fine too. So, so all of that works, which sometimes also help with time zones, et cetera. Ideally, then, you know, we have a pre chat then we'll, we'll book an initial session that I, um, prepare for.

We can be as active or passive in that session as the client prefers. So this can literally be someone sitting down or lying down and I work with them and they observe really and relax into what is happening. Or they can, for example, if we do a constellation, sit with [00:54:00] me at a table, And they can be very, very actively involved in the whole experience and tune in themselves and observe themselves and, and do that.

And as I said, you know, the way I work is very intuitive and never quite know how it's going to be when I start and the sessions are sort of unfolds and it always kind of works. Um, and the session usually takes, I start with a session that takes an hour. Sometimes if we do something bigger. Um, it might take a little bit longer, but we'll, we'll, uh, we'll agree that beforehand.

And quite often, you know, at the end of the session, I will either have maybe a little takeaway for the client, like, you know, do these things every morning or think about this or in these situations, be mindful of that, you know, those types of things. Or, um, and, or, um, you know, we'll usually together figure out some guidance on how many sessions we might need.

Um, quite often, to be honest, especially in shamanic work, but also some of the other modalities, one session goes a really long way. Um, [00:55:00] And, and sometimes, but sometimes it's, it's good to do two or three sessions close together. Sometimes you do one session, then wait a few weeks, let it settle the next layer, you know, and then go back in.

So it's really individual, but something that I will chat through with everyone.

Amanda Parker: And when you're meeting in person, where is that?

Kerstin Liener: So I have two locations that I work in, in the world. Um, I work in Hamburg in Germany and also in South Africa and a lovely, wonderful bush town called. Good. Great. Um, yeah.

Where we have the benefit of working outside. Um, so wherever I am, um, yeah, I can be

Amanda Parker: and I wanna get you to London and . Yes, I spend a lot of

Kerstin Liener: time in London, so definitely I'll be over there soon. .

Amanda Parker: Well, is there anything, um, else that you think would be valuable to share with the audience as we're coming to the, to the end of our chat here?

Kerstin Liener: I would just encourage everyone to just, just be curious. You know, if you get that little, [00:56:00] I would say the, you know, our head speaks very loudly and our soul usually whispers. If you get one of those little whispers, just. Just follow it. Go for it. What's the worst that can happen?

Amanda Parker: Thank you so much. This has been such an enlightening conversation and there's so much juice here that I'm also going to be listening back to, to bring into my life.

So I really, really appreciate your time and sharing so openly with us here.

Kerstin Liener: Oh, thank you. It's a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. Wonderful. Speak out loud about things.

Amanda Parker: So to everyone who's listening in, thanks for tuning in to this episode of Don't Step on the Bluebells, and I'll see you next time.Thanks for tuning in to today's episode of Don't Step on the Bluebells. If you enjoyed this conversation, please give the podcast a five star rating wherever you listen. And don't forget to hit subscribe and follow along so you never miss a new [00:57:00] episode.