Transcript #012 - Psilocybin

#012 - Jessika Lagarde - Healing with Psilocybin - Episode Transcript

Amanda Parker: [00:00:00] Welcome to today's episode of don't stepon the Bluebells. I'm here with the remarkable Jessica Lagarde, who is a trauma
informed plant medicine facilitator among many other incredible talents that
she has. And she's going to be sharing with us this incredible work that she
does working not just with women, not just with psychedelics, but really
Helping people to find different ways to explore their own self expression,
their own self acceptance, getting to know themselves.

And I am super excited to have this conversation because I knowthis is a topic that a lot of people feel oftentimes nervous about or they
really don't have that much information on. So we're diving into all things
psychedelics and psilocybin and the way that. You can really use this
incredible medicine to help you in your own life.

Jessica, thank you so much for [00:01:00]being here today and sharing your wisdom with us on Don't Step on the Bluebells.

Jessika Lagarde:Thank you for invitation, Amanda. I'm excited to be here as well.

Amanda Parker: Yeah,so we were connected through a mutual contact, actually, I'm not even sure you
knew we were connected, but I was given your information, um, by another guest
who was on the podcast, my first guest, actually, Jacobean van der Weyden. So
she runs the Microdosing Institute in the Netherlands. She basically said you
have to get in touch with Jessica to be able to dive a bit deeper into this,
uh, context and everything else.

Jessika Lagarde:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had the lucky actually to work with Jacobine for the past
year as well with the Microdosing Institute, helping out with some co
facilitation. So yeah, I'm pretty happy that she connected us both, actually.

Amanda Parker: Yeah,I am too, and I find it really interesting because a lot of people working in
this space take, you know, there's many different [00:02:00]ways to work with this kind of plant medicine. So, She had shared with us
earlier in the podcast, you know, what it means to take micro doses and not
just that, not just the impact on your body, but also even thinking about.

Um, just the way society views these kind of things becauseit's really, like, bigger questions that's on a lot of people's minds. So I
know you work with this a little bit differently. Maybe you want to tell us
just a little bit about, um, the way that you're working in this world of
facilitation and supporting people.

Jessika Lagarde:Yeah. So Well, I try to bridge a little bit of both things, right? I do the
facilitation in microdosing, but also most of my work is actually focused on
the macro journeys, which is actually working with psilocybin, mostly
specifically here in the Netherlands, because it's the only psychedelic that is
actually legal. And Uh, [00:03:00] the way wedo that is through intentional journeys and these journeys, they can happen
within a container of one person with the facilitator or within a group
ceremony, or even within retreat experiences. And this high. Journey, like this
higher dose experience can look, uh, quite different, uh, than the micro dosing
journeys. Uh, but in principle we touch base in very similar, uh, aspects of
the self, right? Like the, the way that I see that is the. Best way to work
with psychedelics is really to put intention and attention into what aspects of
your life you feel like you need some changing or you need some help with or
where you want to develop more self awareness and what are.

Uh, sometimes certain blockages that you have been experienced,where are you feeling stuck [00:04:00] andthese compounds really have the potential to actually shine a light in those
aspects or yeah, just be an amplifier in what parts of you that you are, that
have been blurry for a little bit of time. So that's how I really see. Um, that
they can be quite significant in bringing about, uh, change into a person's
life. And I do feel that, uh, the microdose journeys, like they do offer that
possibility within certain, um, how would I say that, uh, there are certain
ways that that can be more, uh, optimal. Um, like better experienced and that
would be throughout guidance. Also like having different support systems that
can support that experience. And I'm pretty sure we're going to dive a little
bit [00:05:00] deeper into that as well. Uh,but just to touch a little bit on that is that, uh, the fact that it's not just
a pill or anything that you're going to take and suddenly everything is going
to change and magic is going to happen, uh, which has been one of.

The main concerns I have since all these things psychedelicrelated have become quite popular in the media. Uh, but it's really the way you
actually work with the compounds that matter.

Amanda Parker: That'sreally interesting. You bring up already so many facets that I want to touch
on, but just to clarify for a moment, so what is macrodose? What exactly does
that mean?

Jessika Lagarde:Yeah. A microdose is specifically with psilocybin. Would be a certain amount
that is between, in this case in the Netherlands, when we're talking about
psilocybin truffles and not psilocybin mushrooms, I think that's one thing that
I [00:06:00] actually should clarify a littlebit more because the dosing in there is a little bit different. Uh, when we're
talking about psilocybin mushrooms, usually they, they're, they're Intake, um,
is made as, uh, dry mushrooms and, uh, low dose would be between one and two
grams. And if you are talking about a higher dose journey, a macro dose, it
would be between four, five grams

of dry mushrooms. And now when we come to truffles, uh, Thetruffles are actually wet, so, when they are taken, so their, the dose sounds
quite bigger in terms of number, uh, but it's basically the same thing, that
would be between 30 and 45 grams of truffles.

Amanda Parker: Wow,that sounds quite different.

Jessika Lagarde: Ihave to explain that often to clients that come here because I say that to
people and they [00:07:00] feel like I'mtalking about 45 grams of dry mushrooms and that sounds really insane. Yeah,
but yeah, it is quite different. But in principle, the effects are the same.
And of course, we have all sorts of different strains of truffles as well as
mushrooms, and different strains have different, um, Effects, basically, visual
effects, or the, some are more prone to introspective experiences, others are
more for, I don't know, being giggly with your friends, so.

Amanda Parker: Sowhen someone comes in, because you also talked about a journey and that's a
word that I think we use a lot in like the healing and energy space, but
someone who's not as familiar as probably like, okay, what the hell are these
journeys? So when you're taking someone on a journey, what exactly does that
mean?

Um,[00:08:00]

Jessika Lagarde: Hmm,well, think about, uh, as if you would be watching a movie. For example, and
you go to the movie theater and you really get fully immersed in that
experience as almost as if you would be part of that story. Uh, this is one way
that I see it like this journey with the truffles, but at times it can look
like more like a movie of your life or a movie of a certain aspect of your
life.

And. I call it a journey because it does has, uh, theexperience itself has certain stages, uh, from beginning to the end. And also
you are kind of navigating different emotions through it, or you are kind of
being confronted with different aspects of yourself, or at times with different
feelings that might arise, [00:09:00] and itreally feels like. A whole adventure that you are going in, but it's like
really inwards experience if you are doing it in this context and in the
setting and this type of container that is the container, um, that was created
for healing purposes or for therapeutical purposes. So. This is more or less
why I call it a journey, although very oftentimes I like to emphasize we call
it a journey, but the journey actually starts when the truffle journey ends,
because that's actually when you have the insights and the whole other process.
Can start, uh, in your life that can involve, uh, certain life changers or
looking deeper into behavior patterns or yeah, really seeing what are the things
in your life that need some sort of attention to.[00:10:00]

Amanda Parker: So itsounds like the psilocybin itself is actually the door opener so you can have
some insights or epiphanies but then you actually need to do the work of seeing
what does that actually mean in my life now.

Jessika Lagarde:Yeah. So it's just exactly beautifully described. Uh, that's how I like to see
the compound actually. Um, I don't see it as a magic. Bullet that is basically
showing something new about yourself, but rather just, yeah, again, putting an
amplifier on some things that you already know, and you just didn't want to
acknowledge, or you didn't want to look in there. Um, that being said, I do
think psilocybin works with our body's intelligence or our nervous system's
intelligence and. What some people called in the spiritual space, our inner
healer. So both the compound [00:11:00] andthis inner healer, they work together, uh, to actually ignite something inside
of us that we can choose, uh, to make something out of it, uh, to take action
towards afterwards, but you can also just have, uh, an amazing experience and
have insights and don't do anything about it.

Right. So. But this is also the aspect of it that I find it'spretty incredible. It's actually just reminding us that the power and the
agency is actually within us, right? It's not the compound that is giving that
to us. It is always there. It's just reminding us that this is always there.
And you choose and you have the power to do whatever you want with it
afterwards.

Amanda Parker: Sosomething I find fascinating to understand, um, we're getting a better idea of
what it is that you do and how you help people. If you were to imagine that
you're talking to your five year [00:12:00] oldself and explaining to five year old Jessica what it is that you do in the
world, how would you describe it to her?

Jessika Lagarde: Wow,that's a big question. Okay. Um, I think I would say that basically I go with
people to a place that they once knew and they have maybe forgotten. And
basically I'm just there, uh, to make sure that they feel safe enough to
explore those terrains and those landscapes. And While I'm there, they know
that everything's fine. Everything's welcome. And this is also why I like, I
call [00:13:00] myself more a facilitatorrather than a guide. I just, I am just there to ensure that whatever needs to
unfold, uh, will, will happen in the most safe way as possible. And. At the end
of the experience, I'm also there to carry the person through whatever is
needed or whatever kind of support is needed. Um, so maybe, yeah, for my five
year old self, I don't know, it could be like a good school teacher or somebody
who is taking, yeah, then on a excursion through a museum or something. Yeah, I
think that would be an easy way, yeah, to

grasp it.

Amanda Parker: It wasa really beautiful description of how you help keep people safe, and a five
year old would get that, and so would an adult. We, we [00:14:00]don't often have those spaces where we really feel safe to experience
ourselves. And a lot of people are just so afraid of what will come up, know,
they're really scared of what they're going to have to confront or what they
need to know.

So

Jessika Lagarde:Yeah, yeah.

Amanda Parker:beautiful way of putting it.

Jessika Lagarde:Thank you, Amanda. Yeah. And again, like, um, this safety aspect also looks
different for everyone, right? Like, so this is also part of this process is
actually working with people to understand what safety means to them because it
will, it will look different. And, um, Yeah, like, really making sure that the
person feels seen, heard, and carried throughout the experience is a really big
part of what can allow vulnerability to actually happen and what can actually
empower the person to have the [00:15:00]strength. To go to those places that sometimes we don't want to go. If you go
there and you know there is somebody else out here in presence, or sometimes
just holding your hand, it can really make a whole difference in terms of like
how much you surrender or how much you go into the experience.

Amanda Parker: I cansay, I'll share a little bit just of my own experience. So I haven't done this
with psilocybin and I haven't done a micro, uh, macro dose in that way, but I
did work with ayahuasca in a retreat setting and it was so hard to let go. And
I know, especially there, I had done a few ceremonies. In that retreat and that
first ceremony.

I mean, I did not want to let go. I was holding on to control.I was aware of everything happening in the room around me. And I remember
having to set the intention for myself on, maybe it was the second, um,
ceremony, the second journey that we did, of, okay, [00:16:00]now the intention is surrender. And that was a very different experience.

Jessika Lagarde: Ican't imagine that for sure, but it's also interesting, like when we have
experiences in which we can actually observe how difficult it is to let go or
even what letting go means, right?

Because I don't feel Like, sometimes

Amanda Parker: that?

Jessika Lagarde: wedon't fully grasp what that means until we go into an experience like that or
until we are faced with something in life that we actually realize control is
an illusion and we have absolutely no control over anything. So, yeah, I feel
like, yeah, this can also shine a light in which are the ways in life that at
times we give ourselves more anxiety and worry, or, yeah, it Although, you
know, in all itself, it can be quite an interesting, yeah, observation of the
self.[00:17:00]

Amanda Parker: Thatis for sure. Um, so how did you actually get into this work? What was it that
drove you to begin?

Jessika Lagarde:Yeah. So basically, um, I think I'm pretty much like everybody else. I bumped
into psychedelics when I first moved, uh, to Amsterdam in 2018. And I started
to actually have experiences in more of a recreational setting. Um. Which is
very common and very popular around here. And I feel at times, uh, recreational
is very much underlooked. Um, but these experiences have been responsible for
so much of me tapping into my self expression and connection to my creative
side and connection to music and to others in such spaces. And it took me.
About a year to actually, um, start to go into [00:18:00]experiences with more of a. Therapeutical lens and focusing more on healing.
Not that before in this recreational experiences, I did also experience healing
one way or another. But when you actually take a compound like this, uh, in a
different container, as we were talking about before, there is so much more
that can emerge. And again, when you put intention, when you work alongside.
uh, facilitator or you work alongside a therapist or you have a whole other
support system around you. Uh, there's so much more than you can get, uh, from
the psilocybin experience. So it was only in 2020 then that I started doing
more of this work. I got some mentorship and I started, uh, sitting for people.

Sitting basically means, yeah, facilitating these experiencesfor group journeys or 201 [00:19:00] sessions.And yeah, since then I actually dove, yeah, quite deep in doing a lot of that,
uh, around here because the country, the advantage that I have around here is
again, it's legal. To do the work that I do, which in most places that's not
the case. And since then I had the, the chance to actually, um, be with many
people and, uh, get training for that to, you know, be trauma informed and
actually understand the multidi dimensionality of. The work that I'm doing and
what it actually means to work with compounds that have been used by indigenous
cultures for hundreds of years.

And what does it mean also to start using those and applyingthem through a more Western context? So it has been a really [00:20:00] deep process compressed in just this lastfour years, I would say. Yeah, and it's ongoing.

Amanda Parker: Yeah,I think that's, um, sounds a lot like, well, the healer's journey, honestly,
but also in the coaching journey, you can't become a coach unless You
experience it yourself. don't really know what it means, and you can't take
people further than you've gone yourself.

Jessika Lagarde: Ohyeah,

Amanda Parker: yeah,exactly. In your process of becoming this facilitator, and really going deeper,
you're also taking yourself deeper to see what's really possible.

Jessika Lagarde: yes,yes, no, 100%. And I think especially when you're talking about psychedelic
work, um, your own experiences are fine. I try to see that like they are part
of your training, right? Like you cannot guide somebody through. A [00:21:00] terrain that you haven't been before andthe more, you know, you engage in self discovery and actually breaking down
conditioning and self beliefs and all of that, the better you are in supporting
other people throughout that process. So I, I like to often use the analogy of,
um, for you to. If you want to work with a facilitator or a guide, it would be
the same, uh, that you wouldn't want to enter an airplane with a pilot that
didn't learn how to fly. So that's basically how I see the work that I do. And
this is why, like, I. I have had quite a few experiences myself.

I, every year, attend a retreat or ceremony guided by otherfacilitators because it's a, [00:22:00] I findit's a lifelong inner work, but it's also a work that you constantly have to
put yourself in the place of a student. So, in the case, um, and why do I say
that? It's because it's also a very relational work, and it's a vulnerable
work, both for the Facilitator and for the person who is going into the
experience and what we want to do is avoid any sort of like projection from the
facilitator size or being compromised in the space that you are holding because
of Some in a process that you didn't look into before

Amanda Parker:That's, that's interesting. I, I learned that, um, so I'm trained in Reiki, and
I remember learning that in the Reiki training, that was, You have to
continuously be looking at your own energy and clearing and all of this,
because otherwise, if you're in a session and something comes up You have to
know if it's yours or not.

Jessika Lagarde: hmm.Mm

hmm.

Amanda Parker: doesthis belong to the client? Is this mine? And I've had that [00:23:00] happen a few times and, you know, a lot ofit is also intuitive and you have to feel your way through. But if I haven't
been doing my own work in those moments and I say, I'm noticing something in
the stomach. No, stomach's fine. I'm like, Oh,

Jessika Lagarde: Mmhmm

Amanda Parker: I'llbe back.

No. Um, so you really have to be able to see that and decipherwhat's yours and what's not. That's

Jessika Lagarde: Yes,yes, yes, and especially in the psychedelic containers as well when we're
talking about trauma informed approach uh Is really seeing in what ways your
behavior or like your response to whatever is happening in that space can be
helpful, or it can be a trigger, or it can re traumatize a person. So, you
really need to keep, um, yeah, this level of self awareness very present as
well, and really check in with yourself.

Like, am I Going now, uh, to assist or give like a, a hand, isthis coming from me [00:24:00] or is thatperson really needing that as an example? So, yeah,

Amanda Parker: Soyou've said trauma informed, and that, because I think that's, I see this all
over now, right, and it's become very popular in different fields of work, what
does that actually mean, if you could shed some light for us on what is trauma
informed?

Jessika Lagarde:yeah. So basically, uh, being trauma informed is actually coming from an
understanding and this obviously comes from the training that I got. That
comes, uh, a bit from somatic experiencing and the teachings from Peter Levine
and Gabor Maté, uh, is this understanding that everyone in our society has a
certain level of trauma and This can be like big T trauma, like big traumatic
events, um, like car accident, death [00:25:00]of a family member or anything like that, or small T traumas, which at times
are things that we don't even consider or think are traumas, uh, like for
example, Being neglected by your parents when you were young or a divorce in
your family. Or at times it is not really what happened, but the way you
responded to something that happened while you were a child. And when we
actually looking, uh, have this understanding and look at people and try to
understand how much of their. Childhood and history influences the way they
move through the world right now. Uh, we can better support them through all
these experiences. So being trauma informed is actually taking the time to look
into that, do like a proper intake, understand, you know. What, uh, [00:26:00] are the trauma responses that a person canhave? Uh, what are the things that make a person feel unsafe or safe? And yeah,
what is the best way that you can actually create this safe enough container,
uh, for each individual so that you can, as a facilitator, uh, give them the
best response as possible. Can give you a, um, short example on that, uh,
because I think that's also very helpful is that the, because we are all very
unique, there can be times that, um, the way that I respond to a client, uh, in
terms of attention, uh, for one person can be triggering for another person. It
can be actually, this is exactly what I needed. So. If you know the history,
uh, of this person and what kind of trauma [00:27:00]responses they have, then you are better able, uh, to give them exactly what
they need. So if you have somebody who have a history or not feeling validated
by their parents or by people in their surroundings, and you are there as a
facilitator, what you want to do is actually be there for whatever they are
saying. Uh, and if they say they need something, you try to give that in the
best possible way. If they say they are feeling something, you really try to be
there and listen. So yeah, this is just one quick example of that.

Amanda Parker: Soyou're really taking the time to get to know the people that come in and
understand And what are some of these either stories or beliefs or patterns
that are showing up for them

that you can be aware of and maybe even help them work through,depending what that is.

Jessika Lagarde: andat times actually [00:28:00] help them beingaware of that themselves, right? Because, uh, the majority of people don't even
think about these things, right? Like, uh, I see that within myself, like six
years ago, I would be walking through the world being completely unaware of why
things, certain things happen in my life or why certain cycles keep repeating
themselves until I actually.

Uh, yeah, I started studying all of this and actually lookinginto all of this. So, but in general, like I feel if you want to dive into
psychedelic work, or if you want to do any sort of psychedelic work, even if it
is with a microdosing, uh, being supported by a facilitator, this person.
Should always take the time to get to know you and it should be a longer
extended process because if you want to make these experiences safe enough
again and more beneficial than harmful then this preparation and this longer
intake and this curiosity and [00:29:00] likereally going there can make a huge.

Difference on how the experience unfolds and how themicrodosing journey unfolds and actually how integration happens afterwards. So
I do feel like, yeah, that's super, super important in general.

Amanda Parker: Yeah,that is powerful. And as you said, it's, um, a lot of people are starting to
explore and experience and experiment with psychedelics now. It's becoming more
widely available. And I'm certain that there's. Not as many places doing it
this way, where it's really intentional and you create the safety and you
develop the understanding, and it doesn't mean they can't be impactful in
different ways, but it's certainly, I guess, what's your goal?

That's the thing to really know. What is it that you're hopingto get? Because if you want to work through these blocks or things have been
standing in your way and you work through. Really, as you said earlier, want
to, like, clear that blurry feeling, like, the [00:30:00]inability to really see clearly, then you want to make sure you're really doing
this in the right way.

Jessika Lagarde:Yeah, yeah, no, but you are absolutely right. That's not necessarily what
happens. Uh, especially again, picking up the, the context that we have here in
the Netherlands, that these things are legal and they are fairly accessible
when you have a whole range of offerings around. Um, the reality is we have a
culture. That we like faster, better, stronger, quicker. I don't know. Like
everyone likes the quick fix. We don't like, you know, to put hard, long work
is it takes effort. Uh, and a lot of people would like to get the shortcut and
unfortunately, again. The media, the way the media has promoted psychedelics at
times has been a little bit with, uh, coming from that lens, which [00:31:00] I feel like, yeah, it's exactly, I feellike it's a bit, um, at times they, they can have a huge impact, but It might
not be long lasting because it is a combination of really putting the effort
and things into action and not just taking a pill. This has been the culture,
yeah, for many years with like antidepressants and all the other stuff that we
just take pills and like not really address. The core, uh, or like the root
cause of things, then we are not really fixing anything, right? Like we're just
numbing. So that's not really something you can do with psychedelics. Uh, they
make it a little bit more difficult to do that. Uh. They rather bring things to
the surface, uh, but you still need to have this big, uh, part which is [00:32:00] your own self, uh, choosing, yeah, to dosomething about it.

Amanda Parker: Hmm.So, I see that a lot in the work that I do as well, and I think Like, that's
the point at which, like, when I tell someone, you don't need a coach, like,
you can do this on your own, but it really helps to have someone guiding you
through the process so it's not so, I guess, also overwhelming. I mean, if you
see, oh, okay, I can have this great experience on psychedelics and
everything's gonna be changed.

You know, some people might be inclined to say, yes, I'll dothat. Thank

Jessika Lagarde: Mmhmm.

Amanda Parker: Um,but they don't realize that what they're actually missing out on by having
guidance or someone who's really there with them to support them through the
process.

Jessika Lagarde:Yeah, no, exactly. And also to actually sometimes help see things through a
different lens or hold themselves accountable. Sometimes we [00:33:00] do need a push or we do need to talk toother people so that we actually, oh, actually have new insights ourselves when
we are sharing something, right? Like every advices of friends or anything like
that, oh, I automatically have a different view on things that I'm sharing. So
it's. Yeah, I agree with you. It's not something like you need to, but if you
do so, it also shows that you are putting more attention and intention into
what you're doing. Right. So I feel like that that's where the potential really
lies.

Amanda Parker: Solet's talk a bit about how this process works. So if someone says, I really
want to have this experience. What happens then? Do they call you? Do you work,
like, is it a retreat setting? Does someone say, hey, can I come into your
office? How do you actually work with

Jessika Lagarde:Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, it can look different, [00:34:00]uh, depending of, um, yeah. How they want to start doing this work. Right. Like
if they want to do this. As a one on one process or if they want to do that as
a group process, uh, both processes have different qualities to it. Um, I do
have a preference for group work because I find that because I don't, yeah,
like our, most of our core beliefs and core wants come from relationships. So
it is through relationships that we actually get to heal those and group work
has an amazing Ability to actually do that in a very beautiful way. Uh, but at
times that can be people are not ready to be in a whole. You know, full blown
ceremony, retreat container, because it is intense. Like, it's not easy as you
described with your ayahuasca experience.

So [00:35:00] that being said,it's not for everybody either. So that's why we also have the one on one work,
which is what they are trying to, uh, bring through over the next years with
psychedelic psychotherapy under the medical model. The way this process can
look like, both for the group work and for the one on one work or two on one
work, is having an intake at first. And ideally, if you want to work with a
facilitator, a guide, this intake is important. I need to emphasize that
because if you, if you're thinking about taking up psychedelic and somebody
doesn't do the intake, that's a huge, huge red flag. And this intake, uh, can
be done via a call or filling up a form or most often both. And it basically
mean, [00:36:00] um, really getting to know thehistory of the person, the medical history as well, but also like assessing
what is their current emotional state or what are the things that they have
been experiencing right now. Uh, if they have any history of. Bipolar,
schizophrenia, or borderline in the family, because these are really also, uh,
red flags and not advisable for people that have the history.

Um, yeah, so

Amanda Parker: Couldyou just say for a moment why?

Jessika Lagarde:psychedelics, again, they are not, unfortunately, they are not for everybody.
So they are not, um, compounds that are safe for everybody to just take them
and, uh, have a good experience with it. People that have. That history of
mental disorders, like I don't like to use that word, but that's the word that
most people will understand what I'm talking about. [00:37:00]I'm more susceptible to actually have some sort of psychosis or negative
experiences if they take psychedelics. And this is one of the things that most
facilitators are trying to. Uh, filter because we do not have enough research
to see if psychedelics can be helpful for people with that history or at all.
So in this case, it's better be safe than anything else. Um, so the intake. And
the medical screening is usually to look into those things and also look if the
person is in a current emotional state that is, um, very unstable or very
dangerous, like suicidal ideation or not having actually people in their
support system, then it's probably better if they don't.

Take psychedelics [00:38:00] aswell. Uh, yeah, for obvious reasons. So this is how we start the process and we
start to look into, Hey, yeah. You think you're a good fit and it's actually a
good fit for you, but let's, you know, dive a little bit deeper on what exactly
you're trying to get from this. So this is where it enters a process of
preparation and understanding intention and managing expectations and
understanding. You know, the way I work, like I was, as we talked before,
through a trauma informed lens, all of these things that make this person, this
person, so that we can create together an experience that is going to be
helpful, that is going to be, you know, the optimal, safe enough container, uh,
so that they can explore their inner selves. And Um, should I go into how the
journey looks like?

Amanda Parker: If [00:39:00] you're ready to and want to, then yeah.Because I think, like, I always try to put myself in the shoes of someone who
has very little experience, but a lot of curiosity. And they might be
listening, really thinking, like, I don't know, like, is this scary? Should I
do it? How does it work? And so, listening to you really share what that's like
is a bit of that demystifying process.

That's a little, okay, this is not just some scary thing that Idon't understand and don't know how to engage with, but there's real people who
are, like, highly trained. They know how to guide me through, and it's
something that I can actually access.

Jessika Lagarde:Yeah.

Amanda Parker: That'sthe piece that's helpful. It

Jessika Lagarde:These fears and concerns are very valuable and they make a lot of sense, right?
Like if you look into the history of psychedelics and how everything got
prohibited in the past, you don't [00:40:00]read very nice things about it. So there is a lot of stigma around it.

There's a lot of, um, misinformation. And there's a lot of likereally, uh, scary ideas that can, you know, show up about these compounds. So
this is also why a big part of my work is actually the educational work to try
to reeducate people on, uh, and especially women on what psychedelics actually
are and what can they actually do for you and how to do them in a safe and
responsible manner. Um, But some fears that I see often people having is, um,
am I going to go crazy? Uh, which is a very normal one because it was a lot in
propaganda in the past, or am I gonna stay like this forever? Or is this gonna
mess up my brain? Or sometimes it's like, Is this going to make me quit my job
and move to the jungle and things [00:41:00]like

that in my life?

Amanda Parker: butonly if that's your journey.

Jessika Lagarde:Exactly. So, um, these are very valid fears and we try to work with those
fears, uh, and understand them deeper throughout the preparation process as
well. Because, uh, It's also part of making sure the person will feel safe
enough for the experience and really having trust, not only on what the
experience can look like on the facilitator, on the compound they are working
with, but also on themselves is really, really super important.

Amanda Parker: Yeah.So it's really, um, fascinating because I think, I think that people don't
realize actually how much work and thought goes into this experience, you know,
I don't think I mean, for those who are not as experienced, for people who
have, you know, worked with these compounds, as you put [00:42:00] it before, they will have an understanding of it, butfor a lot of people, you just have no idea how much thoughtfulness really goes
in,

and into guiding people through a positive experience, like thepurpose of doing this, the reason that you're coming together is to help create
change and shift, and to help bring awareness, whatever that looks like, to the
person who needs it, So you're actually just facilitating a space where people
get what they need to do the work they need to do.

And the psilocybin itself is an aid, a very important aid inthat process, but it's still just one piece of the overarching puzzle of how
you get

Jessika Lagarde: Yes,exactly. Uh, and this psilocybin itself. Right. Like it's not a main thing and
it's not the main tool, right.

But it's a combination of different tools that you arecombining, uh, yeah, to support you throughout your healing journey or your
journey back [00:43:00] to yourself. So that's.Why we talk a lot about the container as well, like how the setting setting.

So like the mindset, the person is on, like during theexperience or the days prior to it, uh, the place where the experience takes
place, uh. Who is there to support you and the dose, how much you're taking
from that compound, how much do you know about that compound and about the
effects that it has on the body

and how much actually, yeah, psychoeducational information youhave received beforehand.

This is very helpful as well so that you feel like more trustin the process. And not only that, but also like how much support you're gonna
get afterwards, which is quite a big piece as well. So it's really that
combination

that makes up psychedelic experience, something that can belife changing,

Amanda Parker: Hmm.

Jessika Lagarde: uh,and long lasting.[00:44:00]

Amanda Parker: And sowhen someone, let's say they're a good fit, they've done the intake,
everything, you're convinced this will be supportive for them. Um, what would
that journey look like? Is that, you know, do people come in for one day? Is it
a couple of hours or is it, do you do these retreats over many days? So what,
what's that like for you?

Jessika Lagarde: Hmm.So for, uh, 2 0 1 session or one-on-one individual session or

a days?

Amanda Parker: two onone, is that like two facilitators, one? Okay.

Jessika Lagarde:sometimes. Um, so most of my work I do with women.

Uh, and then I do in one on one sessions, but if I am to have aMayo client, then I will work with another guide or another facilitator who is
going to be a Mayo as well. Um, at times, uh, I do like to work, um, with a
partner guide in general, just because, uh, you have like. Parental figures [00:45:00] holding the space and that can be veryhelpful for people. Uh, but when it is a group setting, so it's a group
ceremony or a group retreat, we have a whole team of facilitators that are
there present, uh, for the group. And this usually happens in a ratio of one,
um, one facilitator per three participants. And basically, okay, how that looks
like for individual sessions, it is that the person will go there, to their
place, or they will come to wherever the ceremony is taking place. And in the
morning. And they stay there until the evening time, or I stay there until the
evening time. And the experience actually unfolds throughout the course of five
hours, adding one hour before and one hour after in which I do a check in.

I can do meditation, breath work. Uh, we can dive deep. [00:46:00] Uh, deep again on the intentions for thejourney. And also after is really make sure that they have the initial
integration support of the experience. So sometimes they feel like they want to
engage in more conversation all the time is just like being there.

in presence. And when it comes to a retreat experience, uh,this is a little bit, um, longer. This is like a five days experience. And in
that case, we do have two ceremonies, uh, within those five days. And.
Workshops that are also focused on, you know, supporting that process, uh, and
including a lot of body movement as well, bringing people back into their
bodies, sharing circles so everybody can relate to each other experience and
that we actually get to understand that we are all co creating this container
together. So it's not just something that the facilitators. [00:47:00] are doing, and they're basically holdingit, but also all the other participants that are there are also part of the
experience for each other, right? Like, uh, and that's the amazing thing about
group work is that we can be there and be mirrors for each other in triggering
ways or in other ways. Yeah. So this is basically, yeah, how it looks like for,
yeah, the different types of experiences. And again, they are, they're very
different. So it really depends on the needs of the person and what they are
looking for, because as well, some retreats can have more of a shamanic
spiritual approach. The sessions, they can look a little bit more, um, yeah,
like therapeutical in the sense of like more psychotherapeutical framework and
all of that. And some people feel more attracted to one and the other. Some
people feel ready to do one, but not the [00:48:00]other. So. It depends on individual needs.

Amanda Parker: AndI'm guessing that, um, well, I'm wondering, because I know from ayahuasca that
it's, it can be sometimes quite a physical journey as well,

to put that nicely. Um, is that a similar experience with thepsilocybin?

Jessika Lagarde:Yeah. Yeah. But a bit different

as well,

because with ayahuasca, you have a lot of, uh, it's quiteintense with the purging, right? Like the vomiting and all of that. And
psilocybin, that does not necessarily happens. Uh, especially if you make a tea
out of the truffles, then it really calms your stomach and you don't need to
puke. Uh. But yeah, the funny thing is, like, a lot of people, when they think
about psychedelics, they really have a very specific [00:49:00]idea of, like, how a psychedelic experience looks like, right? Like, things are
melting, I don't know, like, moving

around, Colors yes, that can happen, but it's not always likethat, right? And as I mentioned before, um, the way I understand and I see how
They actually work is speaking the same language that your nervous system
speaks. And why do I mean by that is it speaks the languages of sensations and
that translates very directly into feelings in your body and having a very
physical experience most of the times.

And that's how the psilocybin experience can look like as well.You will see things, um, you will. Yeah, be able to have images or memories
going through your mind, but more than anything [00:50:00]else, you will feel things. It's a really a feeling experience, an experience
of being and being present with what's going on in the body. And this
intelligence of the body, which I find it is more intelligent than the mind
itself. So a lot of. The stuff we have, they actually get stuck in the body and
different parts of the body. And at times this can be manifested as disease,
uh, or like when we are stressed, we can actually feel that in the body at
times much faster than. When we actually acknowledge that by the mind and
during these experiences, you can really have very clear signals of where
things are storaged in your body's intelligence.

So for some people they can be shaking hands. So I like, theycan also be giggling. They can also be crying or I am [00:51:00]different types of emotional releases. Yeah,

Amanda Parker: Yeah,it's really interesting. Um, it's so fascinating because I've, I mean, I know
this from my work, I've heard it on the podcast from other healers and just the
way that we are really holding all of these emotions, storing them inside. the
kind of pain or disease or anything that that might lead to and the ways that
you're really trying to look at what that root cause is to release it.

Because if you just, ow, my back hurts, you go to likephysiotherapy, great. But what happens when that same pain or stress or fear
comes back in five months? Well, your back's probably going to hurt again.

Jessika Lagarde:exactly.

Amanda Parker: It'sfascinating that, um, from what I understand that you're saying, the psilocybin
actually helps you feel that, to actually physically feel where that is and
what are the emotions that are tied to it so that you can really have that
experience and, of course, in the safe space, move through it.

Jessika Lagarde:Yeah, exactly. [00:52:00] And most of thetimes, uh, these experiences are going to be the start of some sort of
emotional release and some sort of that, yeah, start of that release. Sometimes
you have a competition, but other times, most of the times you don't have a
full cycle happening throughout one experience. So that would mean that you
continue to work through that on integration with, uh, somatic therapist or any
other, yeah, means of support that is needed.

Amanda Parker: And Ialso just want to emphasize something that I've heard you talking about, um,
that it's not just the journey itself. It's really a lot about the preparation,
how you get ready for that journey, the intention, why you're going into it,
what it is you want to get from it. And then after it's complete, there's an
integration phase.

So you're actually taking the time to understand what are thechanges I need to make or what's that. Maybe inner work or what's been
illuminated that I can now take [00:53:00]forward and look into to help me heal these parts of myself that need that work

Jessika Lagarde:Yeah, yeah, integration is basically translating whatever comes out of your
experience into your daily life, right? And that can at times looks like, yeah,
behavior change or I don't know, a career change or like. Relationship changes.

These are the,

Amanda Parker: to thejungle.

Jessika Lagarde:moving to the jungle, these are the most difficult ones, right?

Like sometimes it's changing really small habits as well. Um,other times is as simple as just go get some rest. Take a break and integration
can naturally unfold as well. Like, and I find that unfolds much easier if you
do have an in-depth preparation process, right? Because that already [00:54:00] shows the commitment of the person totheir, to do their, you know, work. And then during integration things are
gonna flow much easier as well.

Amanda Parker: So I'dlove to hear if you have any maybe stories that you could share with us. If
there's Maybe a particular moment with obviously keeping the confidentiality of
the people you work with, but some kind of transformation that you saw that was
possible through this work. Or

Jessika Lagarde: Hmm,

Amanda Parker: foryou that was remarkable, that you couldn't believe this had happened.

Jessika Lagarde:Yeah. Um. Well, I can think about different ones. Uh, one is of a client who
had a big history of drug addiction and he came here and after one psilocybin
session, he has never, yeah, got in contact with [00:55:00]the drug again. And this has been three years now. And every year he comes for
one session.

Amanda Parker: Hmm.

Jessika Lagarde: Uh,to actually, I feel like in a way it gives him this confirmation that he
doesn't need that coping anymore. Um, Another example that I can think about,
it was of a client that I had, uh, last year who, she had terminal cancer. And
since she got diagnosed, she was all the time, her heart alert, uh, stressed
and nervous. And she came here to have the psilocybin experience and. She
actually fell asleep,

Amanda Parker: Hmm.

Jessika Lagarde:which I didn't know it was possible by the way.

I was like, oh, and she slept for, uh, the entire journey. [00:56:00] And at the end of it, she was like, she's,it was actually the first time she got up. So this is why I say, like, I really
see how this compounds work with our inner intelligence and what our body knows
and what our body needs. And the experiences can look very different for every
person and the way, I mean, I can also think of, uh, Oh God, so many examples,
uh, with me and myself. Uh, and. I feel like they have been extremely helpful
for me in how to deal with anxiety

and The way, uh, psilocybin did that for me was really helpingme understand it better and how to relate to the anxiety in a different way,
rather than actually cure and get rid of my anxiety. So, [00:57:00] that's why I see, like, how They, theywork together with us, but they don't do the work for us. Right. And what we do
with it afterwards is really important.

Amanda Parker: Wow,that's really powerful. Just about the first story that you shared with this
client who has overcome a drug addiction. Um, I guess it's a bit
counterintuitive, right? Because people might be worried that, uh, okay, maybe
you should stay away from the substance. But that it actually has a way of
working with you just to help you, I guess, see yourself deeper.

To see what's really important to you and what matters to you.Um, it's not working in the same way as maybe, I don't know what he was
addicted to in the past.

Jessika Lagarde: Uh,crystal meth,

but yeah, like it's also, again, it's about the way we see thesubstances. Right? Like in our society, right? Like if you talk to [00:58:00] indigenous healers who have been workingwith psychedelics or plant medicine for a really long time, they will never
call psilocybin, mushrooms, drugs,

Amanda Parker: Yeah.

Jessika Lagarde:sorry. And it's not even the package, the

right package. Um,

okay.

Amanda Parker: Sotake a breath, come back in. Um, and you were just about to explain how, like, [00:59:00] indigenous communities, people who havebeen working with, uh, psychedelics for generations would never qualify these
as drugs.

Jessika Lagarde:Yeah. They would never qualify this as drugs, right? Like the fungi, their
plants.

Amanda Parker: Yeah.ha

Jessika Lagarde:Right? It's interesting how we came to a point in our world that we make some
plants forbidden because they are drugs. But on top of that, uh, psilocybin is,
if you look in the addiction chart, that's the most absolutely non addictive
substance ever. Uh, I would be very surprised if somebody get addicted to
mushrooms because it's not easy to take them and be like, Hey, here's all your
shit. Oh yeah. I enjoy that.

Let me do it again.

next week. [01:00:00] So yeah.And this is why it's like so crazy how in in the US and like so many other
countries in the world, it's really like in a black list. Um, so yeah, they can
be good, uh, for treating addiction as well. Yep.

Amanda Parker: Sopeople, if people want to learn more, so let's say they're not quite ready to
jump in yet, they want to learn, they maybe want to just understand what
different possibilities there are. Are there any resources or books or tools,
things like that, that you would recommend that someone has a look at?

Maybe things that helped on your journey too.

Jessika Lagarde: Ohyes, definitely. Uh, there's a very popular one, um, from a few years back,
which is the book, How to Change Your Mind by Michael Pollan. And why do I
think it's a really cool resource? I give that to clients very often. It's
because Netflix did a show very recently, also [01:01:00]on this, that is pretty well done.

And I think, uh, if you don't like reading that huge book,which is quite big, uh, you can just go to Netflix and watch that show. Uh, you
can also watch. Uh, fantastic fungi, uh, there's a lot of videos on YouTube as
well, uh, from the Big Think that I think are very helpful in understanding
what, what are all these compounds about in a very short period of time. And,
of course, there's a whole range of platforms out there that you can look into.
Uh, we do have one, Women on Psychedelics, that is mostly focused on women's,
uh, experiences. And there, we share a lot of articles that is also women.
Sharing their stories and what psychedelics has, you have done for them.

So I think that's also a really good way of understanding [01:02:00] the multiple type of uses and outcomesthat you can have if you work with the substances.

Amanda Parker: Yeah,that's, that's amazing and super helpful. So, um, I'll definitely be sharing
those resources as well in the show notes so that anyone who's curious and
wants to learn more has easy access to them. And What would you say is, is
there any advice that you would give to someone who's just starting out on this
journey, who wants to begin?

Jessika Lagarde: Takeit slow. I think that's an important one. Take it slow, do your research, be
curious about it and When I say do the research, it's not only about the
psychoeducational material, but also if you feel like, yeah, I'm ready, uh, see
what compound might be more, most interesting for you or where would you go to
for that? So, of course, different places [01:03:00]have, they can bring up. Very different types of experiences, right? You're not
going to have the same experience if you are coming to the Netherlands than if
you are just going to, into the Amazon jungle. So, um, do a research as well
with, in who you are working with. Uh, more than that, when I say take it slow
is so that you really understand that it's a process, it's good to have. Some
sort of support system or therapist or friends and people that actually know,
uh, what you want to go into. Uh, just because this is the best and most safe
way to get the most out of these experiences. Take slow again to understand
that change takes time and yeah, healing also takes time, right? Like we cannot
just undo a whole life of conditioning, uh, [01:04:00]in one day. Uh, but yeah, really. Also having that understanding, uh, that is
feels like very counterintuitive to the world that is so fast paced that we
live in today, but taking things slow is really a big part of this process.

Amanda Parker: Thatis very valuable advice for all of us. Um, and maybe you can share a bit about
what it is that you have going on at the moment. So what are you excited about?
How are you excited to help people? What are you working on next?

Jessika Lagarde:Yeah, so I still, uh, do a lot of my educational work through women of
psychedelics and I have, uh, I have two offerings that are coming up very soon
about springtime, which will be an introductory educational support for small
groups. One is focused on microdosing [01:05:00]journeys for women, and the other one will be for intentional psychedelic
journeys. And the reason why I'm doing that is, again, You see from everything
that I shared with you today, I really think that educational piece is really
important and that's where you actually start. So these are my main focus for
this year, but I'm also going to be partaking in some retreats as a co
facilitator and I also still offer my services of.

201, 101 sessions or ceremonies. So if anybody is interestedabout that, they can find me on my website, which is my own name. Uh, so you're
going to write that down because that makes it easier. And yeah, we, we, would
do that whole process that I described and always find out if it is a good fit,
a right match.

Um, but if not, I can always also forward people to otherpeople in my [01:06:00] network that might be abetter match. So.

Amanda Parker: Andfor all of those pieces, the education and actually doing a journey with you,
is that all face to face in the Netherlands? Can that be done online? Or what
does that look like?

Jessika Lagarde: Uh,the whole process can be done online except for the session. So the session has
to be done in the Netherlands, uh, for obvious safe, safe reasons, uh, but
preparation and integration and the educational piece, everything can be done
online from the comfort of. Your home, so that's the advantage that we have
nowadays, right?

Like is that we can really bring that to people to all cornersof the world in which they don't have that easily available. Um, so that's
really cool.

Amanda Parker: Andwhat's the best way for people to get in touch? So you said your website, which
is

Jessika Lagarde:Yeah.

Amanda Parker:jessicalagarde. com.

Jessika Lagarde:Yeah.

Amanda Parker: And onsocial media, are you in other places as well?

Jessika Lagarde:Yeah, I'm on [01:07:00] social media. MyInstagram is the global paths, uh, because there I also share, yeah, a little
bit about my journeys, uh, throughout the world and yeah, another way they can
find me is through womenonpsychedelics. com, uh, where educational website as well.
And yeah, if you, people just send me an email or reach out to me through one
of the splatter forums, I'm very easily available.

Amanda Parker: Good.And I'll share all of your contact information in the show notes so they know
exactly how they can get in touch. Are there any last words or pieces of wisdom
that you want to make sure comes across before we close?

Jessika Lagarde:Yeah, I think, uh, yeah, I would leave it with something that I always tell
people when they are starting to board this process, uh, with me or with
anybody else and something that I like to call [01:08:00]cost, which means curiosity, openness. Surrender and trust, which are really
big pieces, uh, to have, you know, the best psychedelic experience you can
possibly imagine, but these are also big pieces for life's journey in general.

So I would leave that just as a reminder.

Amanda Parker: That'sbeautiful, so we should all take cost into mind.

Thank you so much for sharing so much of the work that you doand really shedding a lot of light on a topic that people are definitely
curious about and don't always know where to get the right information, so your
generosity of Being open about what that looks like and how you really help
people and how this can actually help people is Much appreciated.

So thank you very much.

Jessika Lagarde:Thank you, Amanda. Thank you for the invite. I'm very happy for this.[01:09:00]
Amanda Parker: And to everyone tuning in, thanks for listening.Don't forget to check out the show notes and the pod sheet associated with this
episode where you'll get all this valuable information and more that can help
you learn more about this psychedelic and psilocybin journey. And until next
time, thanks for tuning in to Don't Step on the Bluebells.